TUCSON, Ariz. – Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff waived environmental rules Friday to clear the way for a border fence to be constructed along the Mexican border.
The move circumvented a series of laws, from the Endangered Species Act to the Federal Water Pollution Control Act and the National Environmental Policy Act, outraging environmentalists.
“Because they refuse to deal head-on with the economics of the immigration challenge, they're now taking a step to destroy the integrity of the central part of southern Arizona's desert,” Silver said. “There's not a wall on earth that's going to stop a human in search of a minimum-wage job to feed his hungry family.”
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/mexi ... aiver.html
Knocke said it was determined that the endangered Sonoran pronghorn "would not present any major issues."
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/ ... e0114.html
Following a severe drought in 2003, the entire U.S. Sonoran pronghorn population sank to an estimated 21 animals. Since that time, an interagency captive breeding program was established, and 25 animals are currently in captivity.
- The pronghorn's scientific name Antilocapra americana sonoriensis means "American antelope goat," though the pronghorn is neither antelope nor goat.
- Thousands of pronghorn once roamed the open deserts of the southwest until market hunting, livestock grazing, drought and habitat fragmentation by fencing, railroads, highways and water diversion projects caused severe reductions in numbers.
- Because pronghorn disallowed - see forum rules in open terrain, they rely on their keen eyesight and blazing speed as defensive mechanisms. They never learned to jump over even low barriers. They are averse to crossing railroad tracks, fences, and the other vertical obstacles which dissects their habitat.
- Racing at speeds up to 60 miles per hour, pronghorn are the fastest land mammal in the western hemisphere, and in the open, can outrun any predator.
http://www.fws.gov/news/NewsReleases/sh ... 3CF60F5094
populations depend upon the ability to move from range to range in response to environmental fluctuations, food availability, and mate-searching. These populations are fluid – isolation decreases the stability of local populations.”
Sky Island Alliance is an organization dedicated to the preservation and restoration of native biological diversity in the sky islands of the southwestern United States and northwestern Mexico. These mountain islands are among the most diverse ecosystems in North America
http://www.skyislandalliance.org/indexSIA.htm
New captive breeding enclosure
New captive breeding enclosure
Last edited by YumAz on Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hello-
The fence is a rather wrong-headed idea. Indeed, it will have absolutely no effect on stemming the tide of undocumented Mexican immigrants, but will have a wide range of dramatic effects on the desert ecosystem. My hope is that it won't get going until after 2008, at which point it will be reconsidered.
peterb
The fence is a rather wrong-headed idea. Indeed, it will have absolutely no effect on stemming the tide of undocumented Mexican immigrants, but will have a wide range of dramatic effects on the desert ecosystem. My hope is that it won't get going until after 2008, at which point it will be reconsidered.
peterb
PS- just read in today's paper that the new Democrat majority is not favorably disposed to funding the fence project...for what it's worth.
by the way, there are interesting statistics on the overwhelmingly positive impact of Mexican labor on the US economy. However, the current situation is such that labor in Mexico is even cheaper, and particularly in regard to fruits and vegetables the American consumer diet would cost four or five times as much if Mexican farm workers received a fair wage. We drove past several Mexican agribusinesses (largely American-owned) going through the Maneadero-El Rosario corridor, and have done a bit of research since returning. A worker at a typical large farming operation there earns between $12 and $20 a week. No health insurance. Most of the laborers are Indian or Mestizo from Chiapas or Oaxaca. Our room at Cielito Lindo, right down the road from a huge agribiz tomato operation: $28 a night.
One thing is for certain: travel in Mexico truly reminds me of how spoiled and blessed I am as a Yankee.
Peterb
by the way, there are interesting statistics on the overwhelmingly positive impact of Mexican labor on the US economy. However, the current situation is such that labor in Mexico is even cheaper, and particularly in regard to fruits and vegetables the American consumer diet would cost four or five times as much if Mexican farm workers received a fair wage. We drove past several Mexican agribusinesses (largely American-owned) going through the Maneadero-El Rosario corridor, and have done a bit of research since returning. A worker at a typical large farming operation there earns between $12 and $20 a week. No health insurance. Most of the laborers are Indian or Mestizo from Chiapas or Oaxaca. Our room at Cielito Lindo, right down the road from a huge agribiz tomato operation: $28 a night.
One thing is for certain: travel in Mexico truly reminds me of how spoiled and blessed I am as a Yankee.
Peterb
Another PS- these economic factors contribute quite a bit to the stringent Mexican plant laws regarding export of plants, cuttings and seeds. Sadly, it seems that Mexican efforts to get cranking on propagation of its national plant treasures and satisfy the world market for cacti and succulents have been very slow and in some cases complete failures. This is indeed a shame as of course conditions for growing many of our favorite and rarest plants are ideal in Mexico. It's understandable when one comes face to face with the less than adequate infrastructure in Mexico and the need for food crops before all else. (Unless of course the land is farmed for a huge seed growing operation that sells flower seeds in America, as is sometimes the case).
peterb
peterb
A global minimum wage would fix that. If a company is big enough to relocate to a third world country, they're big enough to pay a reasonable minimum wage. It would stop jobs leaving this country for cheap labor and it would slow or stop the droves coming for work. We're globalizing everything else, how about a minimum wage?
BUT, it may be a trend
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=u ... earch+News
The company which built much of the U.S. border fence in San Diego, Calif., agreed to pay $5 million in fines for hiring illegal immigrants.
http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2006/12 ... mmigrants/
BUT, it may be a trend
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=u ... earch+News
The company which built much of the U.S. border fence in San Diego, Calif., agreed to pay $5 million in fines for hiring illegal immigrants.
http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2006/12 ... mmigrants/
hey daiv-
because I used to be a high school teacher, I often went to Baja in March (spring break). It's a nice time of year there as the Pacific coast has warmed a bit and it's very warm over on the Sea of Cortez. Nights are still quite cool and remember many hotels don't have heat. (or, like the one in Tecate, there's a tiny little electric baseboard heater that basically kept the area directly by the dresser warm. This is another thing I've noticed in Mexico...hotel rooms are often absolutely huge).
Yuma- I don't think Americans and other first world citizens are prepared to pay the retail prices that would result from a global minimum wage. The $20 a week earned by many farm workers in Mexico is for a 6 day week, by the way. So that's roughly $3.50 a day or about 40 cents an hour. Let's say that gets adjusted dramatically to $4 an hour. Ultimately that would mean vegetables at roughly ten times their current price. $25 a pound for tomatoes? And imagine an equivalent boost in the price of anything using tomatoes...pizza, sauces, etc.
We are used to out of season food for very low prices. It isn't in the general first world interest to change that.
peterb
because I used to be a high school teacher, I often went to Baja in March (spring break). It's a nice time of year there as the Pacific coast has warmed a bit and it's very warm over on the Sea of Cortez. Nights are still quite cool and remember many hotels don't have heat. (or, like the one in Tecate, there's a tiny little electric baseboard heater that basically kept the area directly by the dresser warm. This is another thing I've noticed in Mexico...hotel rooms are often absolutely huge).
Yuma- I don't think Americans and other first world citizens are prepared to pay the retail prices that would result from a global minimum wage. The $20 a week earned by many farm workers in Mexico is for a 6 day week, by the way. So that's roughly $3.50 a day or about 40 cents an hour. Let's say that gets adjusted dramatically to $4 an hour. Ultimately that would mean vegetables at roughly ten times their current price. $25 a pound for tomatoes? And imagine an equivalent boost in the price of anything using tomatoes...pizza, sauces, etc.
We are used to out of season food for very low prices. It isn't in the general first world interest to change that.
peterb
A global minimum wage law will never be enacted since there aren't enough crazy lawmakers in the world who would make themselves look foolish by pushing for it.A global minimum wage would fix that.
What's a fair wage? I lived like a king in South Africa on 800 dollars per month with 7 kids and a stay at home wife. Farm labor got about 4 bucks per day, and the South African government had to build a fence to keep people outside, even under Apartheid, since everyone from Southern Africa dreamed about moving to South Africa to work for 4 dollars per day.
Demanding even 2 dollars per hour would destroy the economies of scores of nations, causing mass starvation.
But if those who think Mexicans etc.. aren't getting a fair wage don't want to be hypocritical by buying what they produce, remember it's not just oil, diamonds chrome car parts and watermelons you will have to stop buying; the biggest seed companies in the world wouldn't do business in South Africa not because objections to Apartheid, but since in Kenya you only have to pay a fourth of a South African salary to farm workers.
One can be interested in social justice, environmental issues etc..without having to suspend basic logic.
But by what mechanism could such a substantial narrowing of the gap be achieved? One of the options is a comprehensive global minimum wage.
The minimum wage might initially be only slightly higher than the present low wages in some developing countries, so as not to disrupt their economies, but it would be increased annually. Ultimately it should reach 40 to 50 percent of the average minimum wage in the industrialized nations.
Compliance with such a minimum wage might be achieved by a ban on imports from countries that fail to adopt it.
In the aftermath of Sept. 11, the time has come to realize that a deluxe globalization for the rich, without globalization of the labor force, is not sustainable, and that until some equity is attained between poor and rich countries, no true globalization will be achieved.
Furthermore, if the gap between the two worlds is not narrowed, the poor countries will continue to breed forces that endanger the very existence of our civilization.
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0123-03.htm
I applaud Ronald Brownstein for extolling the virtues of the global minimum wage. I applaud even more Rep. Dick Gephardt for introducting the idea of the global minimum wage into his campaign for president. This idea is brilliant. It will do many things to improve the lives of American as well as foreign workers, to make trade among nations fairer and to produce a more stable and peaceful world. A global minimum wage will do more to reduce terrorism than many of the military activities of the Bush administration.
Gephardt's idea: Every nation that wants to be a member of the World Trade Organization, must adopt a minimum wage. The level would vary with different nations, of course, but it should be high enough
"to allow someone to live like a human being."
http://www.learningfountain.com/blog/ar ... 000169.htm
Global Minimum Wage, Global Maximum Wage
Global Exchange is promoting an idea whose time has come: the need for a global minimum wage and a global maximum wage. For just one dollar each you can get cool bumper stickers with this simple, yet explosive message: "If we're going to have a global economy, let's have a global minimum wage and a global maximum wage".
We should no longer tolerate a world 'order' in which the 200 largest corporations control more wealth than the poorest 80 percent of the world's people; a world in which the wealthy are permitted to waste resources while the poor see one of their children die from the effects of hunger every two or three seconds, on average.
http://www.globalexchange.org/update/pu ... .97p4.html
http://www.thehungersite.com/
The minimum wage might initially be only slightly higher than the present low wages in some developing countries, so as not to disrupt their economies, but it would be increased annually. Ultimately it should reach 40 to 50 percent of the average minimum wage in the industrialized nations.
Compliance with such a minimum wage might be achieved by a ban on imports from countries that fail to adopt it.
In the aftermath of Sept. 11, the time has come to realize that a deluxe globalization for the rich, without globalization of the labor force, is not sustainable, and that until some equity is attained between poor and rich countries, no true globalization will be achieved.
Furthermore, if the gap between the two worlds is not narrowed, the poor countries will continue to breed forces that endanger the very existence of our civilization.
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0123-03.htm
I applaud Ronald Brownstein for extolling the virtues of the global minimum wage. I applaud even more Rep. Dick Gephardt for introducting the idea of the global minimum wage into his campaign for president. This idea is brilliant. It will do many things to improve the lives of American as well as foreign workers, to make trade among nations fairer and to produce a more stable and peaceful world. A global minimum wage will do more to reduce terrorism than many of the military activities of the Bush administration.
Gephardt's idea: Every nation that wants to be a member of the World Trade Organization, must adopt a minimum wage. The level would vary with different nations, of course, but it should be high enough
"to allow someone to live like a human being."
http://www.learningfountain.com/blog/ar ... 000169.htm
Global Minimum Wage, Global Maximum Wage
Global Exchange is promoting an idea whose time has come: the need for a global minimum wage and a global maximum wage. For just one dollar each you can get cool bumper stickers with this simple, yet explosive message: "If we're going to have a global economy, let's have a global minimum wage and a global maximum wage".
We should no longer tolerate a world 'order' in which the 200 largest corporations control more wealth than the poorest 80 percent of the world's people; a world in which the wealthy are permitted to waste resources while the poor see one of their children die from the effects of hunger every two or three seconds, on average.
http://www.globalexchange.org/update/pu ... .97p4.html
http://www.thehungersite.com/
But again, you suspend logic and common sense for empty slogans. 9/11 had nothing to do with rich and poor. The Saudi and Egyptian hijackers were from middle class families, Saudi is a very rich country, there are lots of countries where the standard of living is higher than the US etc...In the aftermath of Sept. 11, the time has come to realize that a deluxe globalization for the rich, without globalization of the labor force, is not sustainable, and that until some equity is attained between poor and rich countries, no true globalization will be achieved.
9/11 happened because of our military presence in the Mideast and our "Israel, my country right or wrong" political ideology. Bin Laden is rich, not poor, and never lifted a finger against Sweden, who's standard of living is higher than ours.
The whole foundation of your argument is built on a supposition that anyone who follows the news can see is faulty.
Hi Tim- On the other hand, the gap between the relatively comfortable (not talking rich- just not starving, basic health and dental, opportunity, education) and the dirt poor, on a global scale, is huge. I do wonder what the eventualities are of a global economy that most consistently benefits a population fairly small compared to the total population of the planet.
For me, the environmental issues are the most thorny. No pun intended. The outcry on the part of Nortenos (and a very few Baja natives) over the proposed salt mine near San Ignacio is an excellent recent example. Most locals heavily favored the development as a way to ameliorate their generally difficult economic situation. Eventually, mostly due to the efforts of first world environmental groups, the plan was shelved.
Impossible to make judgments, very often in these repeated scenarios...
peterb
For me, the environmental issues are the most thorny. No pun intended. The outcry on the part of Nortenos (and a very few Baja natives) over the proposed salt mine near San Ignacio is an excellent recent example. Most locals heavily favored the development as a way to ameliorate their generally difficult economic situation. Eventually, mostly due to the efforts of first world environmental groups, the plan was shelved.
Impossible to make judgments, very often in these repeated scenarios...
peterb
Why are people poor? I lived in Africa for 9 years and have some very strong opinions on the subject. My experience is that what big businesses does or doesn't do doesn't have much to do with multiple sex partners without condoms, not saving money, being late for work, avoiding doing things you don't like, etc...
Until people change their behavior the ranting of ignorant politicians isn't going to change anything.
I never forced a person to overgraze his land. In fact, I told the tribal people they shouldn't do it. But they did, and the carrying capacity dropped down to nothing. I'd say "Can't you see that you will overgraze if you don't sell a few of your cows?" and they'd say "Look how much green is still there!" and end up destroying any possibility of sustainable livelihood from agriculture.
So who's fault is it?
In Papua New Guinea I'd tell the women to eat more squash, papaya and other veggies, they'd say, "No, if I eat yellow fruit my child's head will be deformed".
Or I'd tell South African Blacks not to kill Chameleons, since they were rare, and they'd say "If I don't kill it, rain wont come".
Cultures are poor generally because they have faults that lead to poverty. Anyone who thinks it has anything to do with resources hasn't looked at a map.
Until people change their behavior the ranting of ignorant politicians isn't going to change anything.
I never forced a person to overgraze his land. In fact, I told the tribal people they shouldn't do it. But they did, and the carrying capacity dropped down to nothing. I'd say "Can't you see that you will overgraze if you don't sell a few of your cows?" and they'd say "Look how much green is still there!" and end up destroying any possibility of sustainable livelihood from agriculture.
So who's fault is it?
In Papua New Guinea I'd tell the women to eat more squash, papaya and other veggies, they'd say, "No, if I eat yellow fruit my child's head will be deformed".
Or I'd tell South African Blacks not to kill Chameleons, since they were rare, and they'd say "If I don't kill it, rain wont come".
Cultures are poor generally because they have faults that lead to poverty. Anyone who thinks it has anything to do with resources hasn't looked at a map.
Well, let's have a look at a resource map then.Cultures are poor generally because they have faults that lead to poverty. Anyone who thinks it has anything to do with resources hasn't looked at a map.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/worldbalance/earth.html
The global economy has grown sevenfold since 1950. Meanwhile, the disparity in per capita gross domestic product between the 20 richest and 20 poorest nations more than doubled between 1960 and 1995.
Of all high-income nations, the United States has the most unequal distribution of income,
excerpt
http://www.worldwatch.org/node/82
Rapid population growth coupled with high levels of consumption and irresponsible corporate decision making, have also created a number of social and political tensions around the world. The unsustainable consumption of water, fossil fuels, and other natural resources places unnecessary stress on developing countries and jeopardizes the health of poor and marginalized people.
In various countries, communities are subjected to environmental damage and local economic tension from oil drilling that feeds the fossil fuel appetite of the U.S and other industrialized nations.
excerpt
http://www.sierraclub.org/population/consumption/
Some human beings today send dozens of times their own body weight in carbon into the atmosphere, and take for granted their right to keep doing so, despite the impact of these emissions on other human beings
excerpt
http://www.iisd.ca/journal/engelman.html
On January 18, the House is expected to vote to roll back billions of dollars in oil industry tax breaks and invest the money in a renewable energy fund. Let's tell Congress to end tax giveaways for big oil.
excerpt
http://www.nwf.org/
PS education defeats superstition, not shock and awe. You could build a school in a third world country for the price of 1 missile.
If you spend your time at marginal and/or extremist sites like the Sierra Club, then you will have a twisted perspective of the real world.
The map doesn't show anything about resources, just who uses some. Switzerland and Lesotho have the same resources, one is rich, the other poor. Why?
Rapid population growth coupled with high levels of consumption and irresponsible corporate decision making, have also created a number of social and political tensions around the world. The unsustainable consumption of water, fossil fuels, and other natural resources places unnecessary stress on developing countries and jeopardizes the health of poor and marginalized people.
Well, rather than repeating lefti-greeni slogans, lets talk about population density. The most densely populated countries in the world are Holland, Belgium, Singapore and a few others like that. What do they have in common? They are rich and have almost no natural resources. Am I right or wrong.
That's more bad logic, and false as well. Funding schools is much more expensive than building one. Besides, American military spending is definitely excessive, but the main negative impact(aside from making the rest of the world hate us for our lack of discretion) is on ourselves. We Americans don't get free health care, higher education etc.. like the Euros because we blow it on a bloated military but it has nothing to do with educating primitive foreigners. That's there problem. '
I personally have given many years of my life in volunteer work, but it's my right and choice, not my governments.
People who live in squalor generally live in squalor because they bring it about themselves.
Well, let's have a look at a resource map then.
The map doesn't show anything about resources, just who uses some. Switzerland and Lesotho have the same resources, one is rich, the other poor. Why?
Rapid population growth coupled with high levels of consumption and irresponsible corporate decision making, have also created a number of social and political tensions around the world. The unsustainable consumption of water, fossil fuels, and other natural resources places unnecessary stress on developing countries and jeopardizes the health of poor and marginalized people.
Well, rather than repeating lefti-greeni slogans, lets talk about population density. The most densely populated countries in the world are Holland, Belgium, Singapore and a few others like that. What do they have in common? They are rich and have almost no natural resources. Am I right or wrong.
I addressed that. People need work, and the fossil fuel industry provides much needed jobs and State income. That's a no brainer.In various countries, communities are subjected to environmental damage and local economic tension from oil drilling that feeds the fossil fuel appetite of the U.S and other industrialized nations.
Yes, it's my right. And there's no proof it's hurting anyone. More empty slogans.Some human beings today send dozens of times their own body weight in carbon into the atmosphere, and take for granted their right to keep doing so, despite the impact of these emissions on other human beings
PS education defeats superstition, not shock and awe. You could build a school in a third world country for the price of 1 missile.
That's more bad logic, and false as well. Funding schools is much more expensive than building one. Besides, American military spending is definitely excessive, but the main negative impact(aside from making the rest of the world hate us for our lack of discretion) is on ourselves. We Americans don't get free health care, higher education etc.. like the Euros because we blow it on a bloated military but it has nothing to do with educating primitive foreigners. That's there problem. '
I personally have given many years of my life in volunteer work, but it's my right and choice, not my governments.
People who live in squalor generally live in squalor because they bring it about themselves.
Hi Tim-
I prefer gray to black and white. If you take what's true about what Yuma wrote and what's true about where you're coming from, maybe it's closer to The Truth. Which we are too limited in our view to be able to see clearly. Just my two cents of course.
I don't think of the Sierra Club as extremist, so I was surprised by that comment.
I do wonder what I would do personally, what I would sacrifice, if it would preserve certain ecosystems and members thereof. Toumeya papyracantha, Opuntia viridflora, E. fendleri and Mammillaria wrightii are being prodigiously wiped out from the juniper-pinon woodlands around Santa Fe due to new development, especially south west of town, largely to support the influx of Mexican families, documented or not. So I bet I could be useful somehow right here in my own backyard, so to speak.
peterb
I prefer gray to black and white. If you take what's true about what Yuma wrote and what's true about where you're coming from, maybe it's closer to The Truth. Which we are too limited in our view to be able to see clearly. Just my two cents of course.
I don't think of the Sierra Club as extremist, so I was surprised by that comment.
I do wonder what I would do personally, what I would sacrifice, if it would preserve certain ecosystems and members thereof. Toumeya papyracantha, Opuntia viridflora, E. fendleri and Mammillaria wrightii are being prodigiously wiped out from the juniper-pinon woodlands around Santa Fe due to new development, especially south west of town, largely to support the influx of Mexican families, documented or not. So I bet I could be useful somehow right here in my own backyard, so to speak.
peterb