Nice to meet you all from Indonesia (and an overview on my plant journey)

[Wiandry Adi]

Thank you for your calculation, Steve! Much appreciated.

Let's move on from that 7.74 camaraderie and get the next result right!... I hope.

Speaking of the test kit you've recommended, I've found some candidate that may suit just right. Here's one of them: https://www.tokopedia.com/vitina/14-in- ... c%3Dsearch

Also, this is another new stuff to me, so give me some time to learn about this (esp. how to use and read it) and I'll be back with the results as soon as I get them.

Also also, I've found this in yet another thread from another forum on the Internet: it seems that our formula is dubbed "MSU fertilizer", supposedly have something to do with Michigan State University (no, I have no connection with said uni just kinda found out others also use such formula. Good to know!)

https://www.slippertalk.com/threads/cal ... ions.2946/

The MSU formula

Screenshot 2023-10-21 115646.jpg (37.98 KiB) Viewed 149058 times

[Steve Johnson]

Speaking of the test kit you've recommended, I've found some candidate that may suit just right. Here's one of them: https://www.tokopedia.com/vitina/14-in- ... c%3Dsearch

Nope -- those test strips only test for total hardness. As I said in my previous post, you need test strips that test specifically for carbonate hardness (KH) and general hardness (GH). This should work for you:

https://www.tokopedia.com/aquajayalente ... te-nitrate

Also also, I've found this in yet another thread from another forum on the Internet: it seems that our formula is dubbed "MSU fertilizer", supposedly have something to do with Michigan State University (no, I have no connection with said uni just kinda found out others also use such formula. Good to know!)

https://www.slippertalk.com/threads/cal ... ions.2946/

Let's take a closer look at that MSU fertilizer:

MSU_fertilizer.jpg (36 KiB) Viewed 149051 times

Phosphate is P2O5, not P2O3, so that must've been a typo. 3% P2O5 x 0.436 = 1.31% P. 15% K2O x 0.83 = 12.45% K. Using the elemental P and K values, the MSU fert is actually 13-1.31-12.45. 1.31/13 = 0.1 on the P side of the ratio, 12.45/13 = 0.96 on the K side of the ratio. The MSU fert link comes from an orchid forum -- may be fine for orchids, but the P and K are way too low for cacti and succulents.

Thank you for your calculation, Steve! Much appreciated.

My pleasure!

[Steve Johnson]

Hi Adi,

I just wanted to follow up with this observation...

Bicarbonate and carbonate in tap water includes calcium bicarbonate/carbonate and magnesium bicarbonate/carbonate. Don't know if I discussed this with you before, so just in case I didn't -- there's a phenomenon called "nutrient lockout". Nutrient lockout is the plant equivalent of you being locked out of your house. Bicarbonate and carbonate are a form of nutrient lockout which prevents availability of calcium and magnesium being taken up by the roots of our plants. When bicarbonate and carbonate in the water react with acid, neutralization makes Ca and Mg available to plants. The reaction also produces water, and carbon dioxide going into the air.

The NH4 and P2O5 in your fertilizers are mildly acidic, so the question is -- will they neutralize KH at least partially? I just joined a chemistry forum, so I'll pose the question to actual chemists for the answer. When I do, I'll factor the answer into what you find once you give me a reading of the KH level from test strips. The goal is to make sure that all Ca and Mg in the tap water goes to your plants, so let's see what we can do to make it happen.

[jerrytheplater]

Here's what I have: https://www.myronl.com/products/handhel ... ameter-ii/ I have one similar to the Ultrameter II 6PFCe. Mine does not do the free chlorine. It is an earlier model which is no longer sold. It reads in milli or micro siemens per cm, depending on the range needed for the solution.

Looks ok Jerry but wouldn't one you can dip be easier? Anyway I've gone through 3 of them but I don't use them anymore.

The whole unit is waterproof and floats in case you drop it in the tank. I used it at work all the time wearing protective gloves over a 1200 gallon cone bottom tank while standing on a roller ladder. Just dip it in and read. Rinse under running water to clean. Make sure to put pH electrode storage solution in the pH cell and cap.

[jerrytheplater]

The NH4 and P2O5 in your fertilizers are mildly acidic, so the question is -- will they neutralize KH at least partially? I just joined a chemistry forum, so I'll pose the question to actual chemists for the answer.

Yes Steve, any acid will react with any base until one of them is neutralized.

[Steve Johnson]

The NH4 and P2O5 in your fertilizers are mildly acidic, so the question is -- will they neutralize KH at least partially? I just joined a chemistry forum, so I'll pose the question to actual chemists for the answer.

Yes Steve, any acid will react with any base until one of them is neutralized.

Okay, let's investigate this further -- from Wikipedia:

• "Phosphorus pentoxide is a chemical compound with molecular formula P4O10 (with its common name derived from its empirical formula, P2O5)." [My emphasis]

The empirical formula is what we see in our fertilizers' guaranteed analysis. From the ChemicalAid website, we get this:

• CaCO3 + P4O10 = Ca3(PO4)2 + CO2 - Chemical Equation Balancer

I think we have confirmation -- after phosphorus pentoxide in the fert reacts with calcium carbonate (CaCO3) in tap water, the Ca and P products are both available for uptake by the plant. Jerry, if I'm wrong please correct me.

A smaller amount of MgCO3 will be present in tap water, but unfortunately I couldn't find an equation balancer showing the Mg product of the reaction with phosphorus pentoxide. Could it be that simple?

• MgCO3 + P4O10 = Mg3(PO4)2 + CO2

If it's not that simple, I'll go on the chemistry forum and request the products of phosphorus pentoxide reacting with calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. The point is to see if Ca and Mg are available to the plant after carbonates in the tap water have been neutralized at least partially.

Adi, I just purchased 7-in-1 aquarium test strips on Amazon so I'll be able to get a reading of KH and GH in my tap water. From there I'll run a test for myself -- tap water, water diluted with fertilizer, addition of 5% white vinegar to bring the watering solution's pH down to 6.0, and a reading of KH after 7 days in the test jar. If the reading is 0, neutralization will be complete. I won't bother you with the results of my test -- the results of your test are more important. When you give me KH and GH readings from your test strips, we can go from there.

By the way, many thanks to Jerry for the tip on using aquarium test kits to test the hardness levels in our tap water.

[Wiandry Adi]

OK, so I've been looking to and fro for the required test kit and it seems most of them sold in Indonesia only measure water pH, nitrate, and total chlorine; the ones that measures KH and GH are hard to come by.

After more thorough searching, I finally found one and I'm currently ordering it. Now, if everything goes according to the plan, it shall be arrived this weekend and hopefully, it's just the right stuff.

This is supposed to be the one, but unfortunately it's been out of stock for a while: https://www.tokopedia.com/aquaticsandco ... c%3Dsearch

This is the one I've purchased: https://www.tokopedia.com/fishcoaquatic ... %3D2348871

I truly hope that is the right one, as there's literally nothing else

[Steve Johnson]

This is the one I've purchased: https://www.tokopedia.com/fishcoaquatic ... %3D2348871

I truly hope that is the right one, as there's literally nothing else

You got it, Adi! It's a shame you had to go through so many hoops, but I'm glad you were able to make it happen. Not a bad idea if you test your tap water for nitrate and nitrite along with KH and GH before you add the fertilizers and potassium sulfate to your 50-liter bucket of water. (I'll do the same.) I'd be surprised if there's any nitrate and/or nitrite already in your water, but best to know for sure in case there's a little bit coming through your local water supply.

[Wiandry Adi]

This is the one I've purchased: https://www.tokopedia.com/fishcoaquatic ... %3D2348871

I truly hope that is the right one, as there's literally nothing else

You got it, Adi! It's a shame you had to go through so many hoops, but I'm glad you were able to make it happen. Not a bad idea if you test your tap water for nitrate and nitrite along with KH and GH before you add the fertilizers and potassium sulfate to your 50-liter bucket of water. (I'll do the same.) I'd be surprised if there's any nitrate and/or nitrite already in your water, but best to know for sure in case there's a little bit coming through your local water supply.

Yeah, I didn't know it'll be such a hassle to get it but thankfully I still got the lucky charm

I'd love to see your water result too. I'd like to see that magical elixir you've been using for years up-close and personal (please excuse my hyperbolic figurative speech )

[Steve Johnson]

I'd love to see your water result too. I'd like to see that magical elixir you've been using for years up-close and personal (please excuse my hyperbolic figurative speech )

Well, if you insist...

I had been using Dyna-Gro All-Pro 7-7-7 since 2012. At the time, I thought that was a balanced fert -- call it "conventional wisdom" I was getting from other growers. Then when MikeInOz gave me a sound education on fertilizers in August 2020, I came to find out that it wasn't balanced at all. The K should've been higher, so I corrected it by supplementing the 7-7-7 with a potassium sulfate stock solution (Jerry was a huge help there). Spirited discussions about P in 2022 led me to understand that P in the 7-7-7 was a little too high. Dyna-Gro discontinued the 7-7-7, so I had to find another alternative -- and I found a good one:

• General Hydroponics FloraMicro 5-0-1 and FloraBloom 0-5-4

I came up with the ideal NPK balance by supplementing the GH ferts with an ammonium sulfate-potassium sulfate stock solution. Why the stock solution? I need to make 1-gallon batches of watering solution because I have only 68 cacti in my collection (that's apartment living for you), and a stock solution is the only way for me to dilute the ammonium sulfate and potassium sulfate in the right amounts. I started adding nitrogen-free TPS CalMag in 2022, and I'm continuing to do it with the GH ferts and stock solution I started using in early spring. The results this year have been a phenomenal improvement.

The growing season here in SoCal is just about over, so the collection is transitioning into fall/winter dormancy. Then it'll be a little water for some cacti (no fertilizer!), no water at all for most until the spring 2024 growing season begins. However, I'm eager to give the test strips a spin, so I'll rustle up a half-gallon of watering solution (half of everything lncluding 5% white vinegar as the acidifier), do a 7-day rebound test, then see what the test strips tell me. I'll give you the results -- when I get the test strip readings, the watering solution goes to my sword fern and a winter-growing Haworthia that'll enjoy it. The test shall begin next weekend. Wonderful that you and I are on this journey together.

[jerrytheplater]

The NH4 and P2O5 in your fertilizers are mildly acidic, so the question is -- will they neutralize KH at least partially? I just joined a chemistry forum, so I'll pose the question to actual chemists for the answer.

Yes Steve, any acid will react with any base until one of them is neutralized.

Okay, let's investigate this further -- from Wikipedia:

• "Phosphorus pentoxide is a chemical compound with molecular formula P4O10 (with its common name derived from its empirical formula, P2O5)." [My emphasis]

The empirical formula is what we see in our fertilizers' guaranteed analysis. From the ChemicalAid website, we get this:

• CaCO3 + P4O10 = Ca3(PO4)2 + CO2 - Chemical Equation Balancer

I think we have confirmation -- after phosphorus pentoxide in the fert reacts with calcium carbonate (CaCO3) in tap water, the Ca and P products are both available for uptake by the plant. Jerry, if I'm wrong please correct me.

A smaller amount of MgCO3 will be present in tap water, but unfortunately I couldn't find an equation balancer showing the Mg product of the reaction with phosphorus pentoxide. Could it be that simple?

• MgCO3 + P4O10 = Mg3(PO4)2 + CO2

If it's not that simple, I'll go on the chemistry forum and request the products of phosphorus pentoxide reacting with calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate. The point is to see if Ca and Mg are available to the plant after carbonates in the tap water have been neutralized at least partially.

Adi, I just purchased 7-in-1 aquarium test strips on Amazon so I'll be able to get a reading of KH and GH in my tap water. From there I'll run a test for myself -- tap water, water diluted with fertilizer, addition of 5% white vinegar to bring the watering solution's pH down to 6.0, and a reading of KH after 7 days in the test jar. If the reading is 0, neutralization will be complete. I won't bother you with the results of my test -- the results of your test are more important. When you give me KH and GH readings from your test strips, we can go from there.

By the way, many thanks to Jerry for the tip on using aquarium test kits to test the hardness levels in our tap water.

Steve

I am being lazy here. I really don't want to think right now. But, the phosphate compounds used to make fertilizers are many. A few are Potassium Mono Phosphate: KH2PO4; Mono Ammonium Phosphate (MAP) Also Known As Ammonium dihydrogen phosphate (ADP): NH4H2PO4; Phosphoric Acid: H3PO4.... You will find them listed in the "Derived From" statement. (Which, I am noticing is not always complete. Trade secrets maybe?)

Phosphorous Pentoxide, to my knowledge, is not used in fertilizers. Why is it listed in the chemical analysis? Because the procedure/s used to analyze fertilizers for phosphorous content all report the result as if phosphourus pentoxide were there. Kind of like General Hardness. Those results are reported as ppm CaCO3, even if you are testing a solution of pure Magnesium Carbonate. The results would be reported in ppm CaCO3 for a solution without any Calcium. It is the convention used.

I remember a course I took in college called Saline Water Analysis. In it, we had to know the definition of salinity. My memory fails me since it was back in 1974, but it included a statement that all the compounds had to be converted to their most oxidized state, (or was it most reduced state?) These compounds are not found in solutions in that state. It is just the convention.

[Steve Johnson]

...the phosphate compounds used to make fertilizers are many. A few are Potassium Mono Phosphate: KH2PO4; Mono Ammonium Phosphate (MAP) Also Known As Ammonium dihydrogen phosphate (ADP): NH4H2PO4; Phosphoric Acid: H3PO4.... You will find them listed in the "Derived From" statement. (Which, I am noticing is not always complete. Trade secrets maybe?)

Phosphorous Pentoxide, to my knowledge, is not used in fertilizers. Why is it listed in the chemical analysis? Because the procedure/s used to analyze fertilizers for phosphorous content all report the result as if phosphourus pentoxide were there.

The "derived from" section of the General Hydroponics FloraBloom I'm using references magnesium phosphate, phosphoric acid, and potassium phosphate. Such being the case, I'm pretty sure it must be the phosphoric acid component which contributes to lowering the pH of my tap water. Since I'm now aware of this as it applies to KH, here are the chemical equations:

• CaCO3 + H3PO4 = Ca3(PO4)2 + H2O + CO2

• MgCO3 + H3PO4 = H2O + Mg3(PO4)2 + CO2

Unless I'm wrong, the Ca and Mg reaction products in the watering solution are available for uptake by the roots of my cacti. However, because neutralization is only partial, I do need to acidify my tap water with 5% white vinegar.

"Derived from" statements on fertilizers are required by law in the US, but I don't know if this is the case in Indonesia. Adi, find out if the FLEX-G and Hijau include a list detailing what their ferts are made of (berasal dari -- yay, Google Translator!). If they do and one of the P sources is phosphoric acid, you'll know that it will at least partially neutralize the carbonates in your tap water.

[jerrytheplater]

...the phosphate compounds used to make fertilizers are many. A few are Potassium Mono Phosphate: KH2PO4; Mono Ammonium Phosphate (MAP) Also Known As Ammonium dihydrogen phosphate (ADP): NH4H2PO4; Phosphoric Acid: H3PO4.... You will find them listed in the "Derived From" statement. (Which, I am noticing is not always complete. Trade secrets maybe?)

Phosphorous Pentoxide, to my knowledge, is not used in fertilizers. Why is it listed in the chemical analysis? Because the procedure/s used to analyze fertilizers for phosphorous content all report the result as if phosphourus pentoxide were there.

The "derived from" section of the General Hydroponics FloraBloom I'm using references magnesium phosphate, phosphoric acid, and potassium phosphate. Such being the case, I'm pretty sure it must be the phosphoric acid component which contributes to lowering the pH of my tap water. Since I'm now aware of this as it applies to KH, here are the chemical equations:

• CaCO3 + H3PO4 = Ca3(PO4)2 + H2O + CO2

• MgCO3 + H3PO4 = H2O + Mg3(PO4)2 + CO2

Unless I'm wrong, the Ca and Mg reaction products in the watering solution are available for uptake by the roots of my cacti. However, because neutralization is only partial, I do need to acidify my tap water with 5% white vinegar.

"Derived from" statements on fertilizers are required by law in the US, but I don't know if this is the case in Indonesia. Adi, find out if the FLEX-G and Hijau include a list detailing what their ferts are made of (berasal dari -- yay, Google Translator!). If they do and one of the P sources is phosphoric acid, you'll know that it will at least partially neutralize the carbonates in your tap water.

Steve, another complicating factor: You are writing chemical equations (some of which are not balanced, which must be. Equal amounts of each element must be on each side of the equation.)

In a chemical equation, it is assumed that the amounts of each reactant and product are stated in molar terms. So, CaCO3 + H3PO4 means you have one mole of each. When calculating possible reactions, you need to know how many moles, or fractional moles, are present. If you don't have the required amount of a reactant (on the left side) you won't get the full amount of the product (on the right side.)

So, if you only have half the amount of one of the reactants that the BALANCED chemical equation requires, you will only get half the amount of product the equation shows.

Now you need to calculate how many moles you have in a fertilizer solution of each reactant. And here is where I have to bow out for the time being. It is more complicated than I want to get into. Much better to test by doing and see what the final result is by plant growth.

[jerrytheplater]

...the phosphate compounds used to make fertilizers are many. A few are Potassium Mono Phosphate: KH2PO4; Mono Ammonium Phosphate (MAP) Also Known As Ammonium dihydrogen phosphate (ADP): NH4H2PO4; Phosphoric Acid: H3PO4.... You will find them listed in the "Derived From" statement. (Which, I am noticing is not always complete. Trade secrets maybe?)

Phosphorous Pentoxide, to my knowledge, is not used in fertilizers. Why is it listed in the chemical analysis? Because the procedure/s used to analyze fertilizers for phosphorous content all report the result as if phosphourus pentoxide were there.

The "derived from" section of the General Hydroponics FloraBloom I'm using references magnesium phosphate, phosphoric acid, and potassium phosphate. Such being the case, I'm pretty sure it must be the phosphoric acid component which contributes to lowering the pH of my tap water. Since I'm now aware of this as it applies to KH, here are the chemical equations:

• CaCO3 + H3PO4 = Ca3(PO4)2 + H2O + CO2

• MgCO3 + H3PO4 = H2O + Mg3(PO4)2 + CO2

Unless I'm wrong, the Ca and Mg reaction products in the watering solution are available for uptake by the roots of my cacti. However, because neutralization is only partial, I do need to acidify my tap water with 5% white vinegar.

"Derived from" statements on fertilizers are required by law in the US, but I don't know if this is the case in Indonesia. Adi, find out if the FLEX-G and Hijau include a list detailing what their ferts are made of (berasal dari -- yay, Google Translator!). If they do and one of the P sources is phosphoric acid, you'll know that it will at least partially neutralize the carbonates in your tap water.

Assuming the basics of the reactions you wrote are correct Steve, the first equation when balanced is:
3 CaCO3 + 2 H3PO4 = Ca3(PO4)2 + 3 H2O + 3 CO2.

The second is:
3 MgCO3 + 2 H3PO4 = Mg3(PO4)2 + 3 H2O + 3 CO2.

There are other Calcium Phosphate compounds possible.

[Wiandry Adi]

...the phosphate compounds used to make fertilizers are many. A few are Potassium Mono Phosphate: KH2PO4; Mono Ammonium Phosphate (MAP) Also Known As Ammonium dihydrogen phosphate (ADP): NH4H2PO4; Phosphoric Acid: H3PO4.... You will find them listed in the "Derived From" statement. (Which, I am noticing is not always complete. Trade secrets maybe?)

Phosphorous Pentoxide, to my knowledge, is not used in fertilizers. Why is it listed in the chemical analysis? Because the procedure/s used to analyze fertilizers for phosphorous content all report the result as if phosphourus pentoxide were there.

The "derived from" section of the General Hydroponics FloraBloom I'm using references magnesium phosphate, phosphoric acid, and potassium phosphate. Such being the case, I'm pretty sure it must be the phosphoric acid component which contributes to lowering the pH of my tap water. Since I'm now aware of this as it applies to KH, here are the chemical equations:

• CaCO3 + H3PO4 = Ca3(PO4)2 + H2O + CO2

• MgCO3 + H3PO4 = H2O + Mg3(PO4)2 + CO2

Unless I'm wrong, the Ca and Mg reaction products in the watering solution are available for uptake by the roots of my cacti. However, because neutralization is only partial, I do need to acidify my tap water with 5% white vinegar.

"Derived from" statements on fertilizers are required by law in the US, but I don't know if this is the case in Indonesia. Adi, find out if the FLEX-G and Hijau include a list detailing what their ferts are made of (berasal dari -- yay, Google Translator!). If they do and one of the P sources is phosphoric acid, you'll know that it will at least partially neutralize the carbonates in your tap water.

Thanks for the extra info. I did some search and found the 'derived from' part from the General Hydroponics ferts you use and use that as a reference for researching local ferts' ingredients. And...

...I found nothing. The 'derived from' section seems to be absent from all of the ferts manufactured by Meroke. However, the components of the ferts are listed as 'ingredients', which I know isn't the same as 'derived from'. I think the lack of 'derived from' statement is due to it's not required by Indonesian law or it's not strictly required and therefore manufacturers prefer not to inform them. Though, is this a concern? (the fact the US legally require the local manufacturers to state these mean this may be something important, a big deal).

Also, thank you for the extra-extra chemistry info, Jerry. I'm not exactly be able to follow it now but give me some time and I'll be able to catch up! (maybe years, since this is chemistry...)