Old man of Andes rot

Trouble shoot problems you are having with your cactus.
FredBW
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by FredBW »

Well ahhh Iduno :) It is definitely Oreocereus trollii though
The cactus was 18 inches above soil with maybe 6 inches buried. So assuming the stem goes all the way through. That makes 24 inches.
It probably has 10 inches left.
I bought this cactus on the 2 year anniversary of losing my lady to meningitis, She worked at a nursery and that is where I bought it. So while I already have 2 way smaller ones. This cactus is one of a kind. I am 62 years old,and not sure if I'll be around to see the smaller ones get this big anyway.
But for whatever it's worth. The edges I trimmed off today,while juicy when I trimmed them. They have already pretty much dried out,and look like they are already trying to callous. Just being outside in the wind this afternoon. I am not putting any more sulfur on it because it is too dry for it to adhere.
I am no longer going to keep it in the basement. I think it's more humid than I thought. While this is the first time I have cut a rotten cactus in half like this. What I am seeing now is what I would expect a callous to look like. And if things go the way I expect,I will turn it right side up in a week or 2,and keep it in indirect sunlight in a spare bedroom till next spring. If it doesn't make it,that's the way the cookie crumbles. I think i have done all I can do for now :wink:
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by Steve Johnson »

FredBW wrote: Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:58 am Well ahhh Iduno :) It is definitely Oreocereus trollii though
The cactus was 18 inches above soil with maybe 6 inches buried. So assuming the stem goes all the way through. That makes 24 inches.
It probably has 10 inches left.
I bought this cactus on the 2 year anniversary of losing my lady to meningitis, She worked at a nursery and that is where I bought it. So while I already have 2 way smaller ones. This cactus is one of a kind. I am 62 years old,and not sure if I'll be around to see the smaller ones get this big anyway.
But for whatever it's worth. The edges I trimmed off today,while juicy when I trimmed them. They have already pretty much dried out,and look like they are already trying to callous. Just being outside in the wind this afternoon. I am not putting any more sulfur on it because it is too dry for it to adhere.
I am no longer going to keep it in the basement. I think it's more humid than I thought. While this is the first time I have cut a rotten cactus in half like this. What I am seeing now is what I would expect a callous to look like. And if things go the way I expect,I will turn it right side up in a week or 2,and keep it in indirect sunlight in a spare bedroom till next spring. If it doesn't make it,that's the way the cookie crumbles. I think i have done all I can do for now :wink:
Good news is that you have plenty of plant material left. The problem with keeping the cut O. trollii in the basement wasn't so much the humidity (although that didn't help) as the lack of free air flow. Where you're keeping it now is much better, and I think you'll have a good shot at seeing new root stubs appearing on the cut sometime next summer. The story on how you got the trollii is incredibly touching, so I wish you all the best here.
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FredBW
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by FredBW »

I think it's obvious this poor cactus future isn't looking good.
It just keeps shrinking. I will probably cut on it some more this afternoon. But there really won't be much left.
The 'wound" seems dry and firm. But something is obviously wrong.
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The good news is where I bought this there were originally 3. I go there often. The other 2 were still there. But this one was marked 50% off. So I have a new cactus. It doesn't look 100% healthy,and looks pretty dehydrated. I gave it a little drink and it is outside in the sun right now.
Where I live there will be a several more 70 degree days that I can leave it outside. Some probably even in November.
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It doesn't have as much hair as the sick one had,and is a lot skinnier. But 70 bucks for a 2 foot tall cactus ain't bad. There is a store a few miles away from this one that would have a price of 300 bucks on the same cactus.
Of course those long 2 months of February might be rough. So I'm giving it all the sun it can get for now.
More bad news is there were a lot more cacti 50% off as they are making room for winter. And I will probably go back and buy more ](*,)
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by Steve Johnson »

Rule #1 when it comes to growing cacti -- for good or ill, everything starts out in the roots. From what I've seen in your photos, it appears that the nursery is trying to grow their cacti in a commercial potting soil. If not and they're using what purports to be a "cactus mix", their mix is too soil-heavy and rich in organic materials -- exactly the wrong mix for desert cacti, including Old Man of the Andes. Since your growing season is just about over, there's nothing you can do now, so here's what I'll recommend when your new growing season begins next year:
  • Unpot the plant and thoroughly clean all of the old soil out of the roots. You'll want those roots to be as squeaky-clean as possible before you repot.
  • Chances are that you won't have much of a root system to work with. The diameter of the pot in your last photo looks just about right, but I think it'll be too deep for the roots. Once you see what they look like after you clean them, measure the length going from the plant's "soil line" down to the bottom of its longest root, add a 3/4"-1" margin for your calculation, and that'll give you the depth of the correct pot you'll need.
  • I grow the vast majority of my cacti in a soil-less 60% pumice/40% granite gravel mix. Since you don't live in a desert climate, this should work well for you. Only downside is that you'll need to fertilize every time you water in the growing season, but IMO worth the effort considering what soil-less mixes can do for excellent growth. If you'd rather go with a mix containing soil, make it nice and lean with plenty of mineral gravel in the mix, and fertilize with every 3rd or or 4th watering. We can discuss ferts later. The point here is to give the plant the conditions it needs to grow a healthier root system next year.
  • Repot the plant in fresh, dry mix, let it settle in for 2 weeks, then give it a good soak. If the mix is lean enough, it'll drain through rather quickly.
  • Desert cacti grow best when their roots are allowed to go from wet to bone-dry all the way down to the bottom before they're watered again. Just to give you an idea -- my Old Man is the famous "Old Man of Mexico" (Cephalocereus senilis) which I got back in June 2011. The plant's pot diameter is 5.5", depth is 6", growing in the soil-less mix. During the growing season, I give it deep watering every 2 weeks in spring and every 10 days in summer.
Some growers can weigh their pots by hand and tell if their cacti need watering, but I never developed the talent for it. I had to take a more "scientific" approach when I figured out what my watering schedules should be -- if you're willing to go that far, here's the procedure:
  • Weigh the pot with the plant and a potful of completely dry mix. Write down the dry weight.
  • Water deeply to saturate the mix. When the water stops dripping down from the drain hole, weigh the pot again, write down the wet weight and note the date.
  • Weigh the pot every day until it reaches its dry weight, note the date, and calculate how many days it took going from wet to completely dry.
If you have only a few cacti, you can do this with each plant. In my case, the collection was standing at more than 50 cacti when I did the weighing back in 2012, so I had to do a sampling of various pot sizes. Interestingly enough, I found that wet-to-dry times were pretty much the same regardless of pot size. Watering schedules based on the "scientific" approach are fine as far as they go, but there are a couple of limitations. First, if your schedule says that it's time to water, cool weather in spring says "no watering" -- use some good judgment and adjust your schedule accordingly. Second, different species have different watering needs. For example, Turbinicarpus plumps up nicely when Turbs get their first watering after winter. But water them every 2 weeks after that, and you'll end up with bloated plants and some species splitting. I water mine when they start looking a bit thirsty (every 3-4 weeks in spring), then when they start putting on growth in summer, I'll water them every 2 weeks. Long story short -- know your species and know what they want. We can't get away from a certain amount of trial and error, but the good news is that you're not on your own here.
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FredBW
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by FredBW »

Yea,after the last one I was tempted to unpot this one and see just what is there as soon as I brought it home. But I know this is the worst time of year to be doing that. The first one there was NO sign of roots. Of course what was under the soil was rotten. But there should have been evidence of SOME roots. I could find NONE Iduno
I am trying to slowly give this one a drink. It probably hasn't had any water all summer.And once I bring it inside for keeps it might be in dormancy 4 or 5 months. If this one has no roots either it won't be able to drink. But i believe it already looks better. I gave it maybe a quart yesterday.
I have far too many cacti and tropical plants to be weighing them. I really havn't had that many problems until this one. And I believe if it would have had a good root system it would have been just fine.

I did cut the sick one again. I just don't get it. It seemed to callous over but wouldn't stop receding.
here is a picture of what I cut off. I probably took 2 inches if you mark the last cut. But the "meat" was probably only 3/4 inch thick.
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What I cut off looks normal except for those 2 specs on the stem. The rest looks pure. I did cut deeper where the specs are,and believe i got down to clean tissue. Both of these pictures are the part I cut off,not the top part of the cactus.
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I sprayed it with peroxide until it quit bubbling. Patted it dry with a paper towel. and lightly dusted it with sulfur. This time I am using a BIG fan. I have to have it on low to keep from blowing the sulfur off. I think there is still enough left if it would just heal.
But I won't cut on the poor thing anymore. If it still keeps receding I will just let it dry out and when it's done call it a "stuffed"cactus :wink:
keith
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by keith »

Wrong time of the year to root cactus in Northern hemisphere mostly the cactus will just do nothing until Spring so keeping the cut part from drying out too much is important. A friend sent me 100 cuttings a few weeks ago and did the same last year which really cuts done on successful rooting.

It can be done just takes longer
FredBW
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by FredBW »

keith wrote: Mon Oct 10, 2022 4:04 pm Wrong time of the year to root cactus in Northern hemisphere mostly the cactus will just do nothing until Spring so keeping the cut part from drying out too much is important. A friend sent me 100 cuttings a few weeks ago and did the same last year which really cuts done on successful rooting.

It can be done just takes longer
And a lot more time for things to go wrong :?
The surgery yesterday Is showing promise. The sulfur is for the most part dry. We'll see.
FredBW
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by FredBW »

My new cactus,I left outside overnight. Temps were cool and lots of dew. It had a nice sunny 80 degree day. But it's supposed to rain so i went to bring it inside tonight. With the little water and dew the soil was no longer like concrete. I stuck a finger under the soil and didn't like what I felt.
So I decided to unpot it. It isn't hard to see why cactus #1 rotted. These have to be BIG propagation's off of a cut off cactus .
Who ever did this just stuck them in sandy/barky soil. And in my opinion didn't care whether they lived or not. But it still seems solid and no obvious signs of rot.
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I know this is the worst time of year. but i am soo glad I had a look.
I was careful trying not to hurt what little roots were on the bottom. Sprinkled it with rooting powder. Filled it back in with my gritty soil
I have been having good luck with it. Chicken grit,perlite coco coir,and a little topsoil. Probably not perfect,but way better than what they had in there. I have no doubt it would have rotted over winter in my cool, filtered light bedroom. It still might rot but i think my odds of success just went up.
When I first saw #2 on sale 50% i walked out without buying it. But about 5 miles away turned around and went back and got it :)
I am still glad i got it. If there wasn't a challenge this wouldn't be any fun!
And believe it or not it went all the way to the bottom of the pot,which I know is WRONG. I didn't fill the pot as high as it was before.
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BryanT
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by BryanT »

You can washed off all the dirt/soil, leave it dry in airy & dark place, and leave it over winter. Just check make sure nothing rot or damage. It should be fine to repot when the weather gets warmer.
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FredBW
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by FredBW »

BryanT wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:07 am You can washed off all the dirt/soil, leave it dry in airy & dark place, and leave it over winter. Just check make sure nothing rot or damage. It should be fine to repot when the weather gets warmer.
Thanks for the advice. I thought about doing that yesterday,and still might.
I am also considering just cutting it off. The pointy part below the soil line is over a foot long with roots only at the very bottom. All of that cactus buried with no roots is bound to invite rot. I don't really see how I could get water down to where the roots are without soaking the cactus body. Even with a real gritty mix.
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BryanT
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by BryanT »

FredBW wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 10:36 am
BryanT wrote: Tue Oct 11, 2022 5:07 am You can washed off all the dirt/soil, leave it dry in airy & dark place, and leave it over winter. Just check make sure nothing rot or damage. It should be fine to repot when the weather gets warmer.
Thanks for the advice. I thought about doing that yesterday,and still might.
I am also considering just cutting it off. The pointy part below the soil line is over a foot long with roots only at the very bottom. All of that cactus buried with no roots is bound to invite rot. I don't really see how I could get water down to where the roots are without soaking the cactus body. Even with a real gritty mix.
When you repot it in spring, if you don't like the look of the previously buried callous area, you can use a deep pot, just fill your new soil mix to cover the roots, then fill the remaining with larger gravels to cover the callous area, that way, you won't soak the cactus body too much. A lot of people do that. Or, you can use a wider normal pot, then to cover the callous surface, you can use some decorative rocks to place around the area on top of the pot, a bit like in a natural environment where plants grow between rocks or cracks. Personally I don't really mind the callous surface, most of the time, when the plant grow bigger and taller, the callous area became just a small part of the plant.
Bryan
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FredBW
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by FredBW »

One week after the last surgery. It seems dryer and is showing promise that i cut off whatever was causing it to shrink. I still havn't given up hope anyway.
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I have for now decided not to "just cut off" cactus #2 after reading the Saguaro thread. The one about how saguaro cuttings hardly ever root. Thinking the odds of one of these cuttings taking root just might not be that high. Figuring maybe whoever just threw these in a pot of dirt might of had a reason for not cutting them off. So I am going try to keep growing as is. And when spring comes try to NOT water from above and bottom water it.
I will probably repot it one more time with this in mind. perhaps giving the roots some space to grow down. Because the way it is now and as it was when I bought it. The cactus is almost all the way to the bottom of the pot!
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7george
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by 7george »

I'm sure that rot started in the garden center due to improper watering or other conditions. So watch for possible wounds, sickness when buying new plants.
If your cacti mess in your job just forget about the job.
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FredBW
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by FredBW »

Took original cactus outside to let it rot away in peace. It just wasn't meant to be. Hairy fungus started growing on it underneath the sulfur,and not really enough left to try again.
Hopefully my 50% off cactus #2 will make it :)
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Old man of Andes rot

Post by Steve Johnson »

FredBW wrote: Sun Oct 16, 2022 1:00 pm...And when spring comes try to NOT water from above and bottom water it.
Sorry, but that's exactly the wrong thing to do because you'll have a big potful of saturated mix with not enough roots to take up the water. I'll show you a challenging case where I had to grow new a root system on a cactus I would've lost if I didn't know how to handle the situation.

Melocactus matanzanus -- I got this plant from a nursery that clearly knew nothing about how to grow Melos:

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That was on May 7 2016, a rich wet mess coming out of the nursery's pot and not much in the way of roots. The holes left behind by roots that had rotted away:

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Repotted in a glazed ceramic pot with a 50% pumice/30% granite gravel/20% soil mix:

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Conventional wisdom says that when adult Melos lose most or all of their roots, new roots can't be grown. Maybe true for a mix that's too rich for the plant, but not true at all if the mix is nice and lean. Now here's the trick -- sip, don't soak. That means applying a small amount of water around the base of the plant from the top, just enough to moisten the mix without accidentally saturating it. Give the mix time to completely dry out all the way down, then sip again. This teases new roots into growing as they seek out water. Here's the watering routine I followed -- sips on 5/21 and 5/28, increasing the amount a bit (still sips) on 6/4 and 6/12, then increasing more for "half watering" on 6/18 and 6/25. After that, the Melo's root system was growing in well enough for soaks once a week over the course of that summer. The "before and after" results on 9/17/16 and 10/31/20:

Image

First things first...

Oreocereus grow relatively deep roots under cultivation, so theoretically Old Man of the Andes #2 should've grown down into that deep nursery pot. However, the nursery's soil was suffocating the roots, leading to the compacted shallow root system you were stuck with. You'll have to ditch the soil and get the roots as squeaky-clean as possible, the point being that A. they hang down freely to accommodate proper pot depth, and B. you don't have a clod of soil hiding up in the base. If you leave that clod in there, it'll take forever to dry out -- that's just asking for rot. I realize that you don't want to lose any roots in the cleaning process, but it can't be avoided, and #2 will grow plenty more of them if you go from sips to half-watering to soaks in the next growing season. Blasting the soil out with a garden hose will obviously be counterproductive, so be gentle and take your time with a pail of water plus a long-handled instrument like a knitting needle, q-tip handle, screwdriver, etc. to tease out the roots. Once you're satisfied that they're clean enough, let them dry out, and repot the plant in dry mix. Don't even think about watering until things warm up enough for you in spring.

The amount of water going into sips and half-watering is something you'll have to develop a feel for. Same goes for how often you should do it, although my default recommendation would be every 2 weeks in the growing season. Before you commit to repotting #2, please post a photo of the plant in its bare-root state after you clean the roots. If you did a good job, proceed with the repot. If not, I'll let you know that you need to clean them more. I've lost cacti because I wasn't being thorough enough, and I just don't want you to be in the same boat I used to be in when I had to learn the hard way.
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