What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

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OWgave
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What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by OWgave »

Hello All-

As the title says, what is a good ppm range using Dyna-Gro All Pro 7-7-7 or any other nutrients for succulents? I’ve read somewhere between 100-150ppm is good, what say ye?

Thanks for reading and mass thanks for replying 😁

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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by jerrytheplater »

Are you asking about the actual concentration of the liquid fertilizer or the concentration of the Nitrogen only? I ask because both are used.

I am able to buy Foliage-Pro from my friend that owns a greenhouse. He buys 4 55 gallon drums of it at a time. I dose based on the Nitrogen concentration and aim to use 25 ppm N in my watering solution. I am using a mainly inert mineral potting mix with maybe 10-15% by volume very coarse peat moss added.

I also supplement the Foliage-Pro with extra Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4) and Mono Potassium Phosphate (KH2PO4) to bring the analysis up to 9-8.25-16.3. That analysis is in the US convention for fertilizer: %N-%P2O5-%K2O. I don't add anything to the Foliage-Pro container.

So, I add 1.05 ml of my Foliage-Pro to a gallon container (a little less than 1/4 tsp/gal) along with 288 ml of my stock solution containing 1.75 gm K2SO4 and 1.40 gm KH2PO4 per gallon of water. This gives me 25 ppm N, 23 ppm P2O5, and 45 ppm K2O in the water I am fertilizing with. I use it about once per week or less. I flush the pots with plain water before fertilizing.
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by OWgave »

Hello JTP-

Thank you for responding to my question.

This question is in regards to “…actual concentration of the liqiud fertilizer…”

Good Growing,
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by jerrytheplater »

I am using a bit less than 1/4 tsp per gallon weekly or bi-weekly. That is 1.05 ml Dyna-Gro/3785 ml water. That comes out to 0.000277 or 277 ppm Dyna-Gro.

You are talking about using half of what I'm using.

Let's hear from others.
Jerry Smith
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45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by Steve Johnson »

jerrytheplater wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:14 pm I am using a bit less than 1/4 tsp per gallon weekly or bi-weekly. That is 1.05 ml Dyna-Gro/3785 ml water. That comes out to 0.000277 or 277 ppm Dyna-Gro.

You are talking about using half of what I'm using.

Let's hear from others.
I have a different way of calculating ppm, so here's what I get with the N in 1/4 tsp. of the 7-7-7 in a gallon of water:

1 tsp. goes into a gallon 768 times, so 1/4 tsp. goes into a gallon 3072 times.
.07/3072 = .0000227864
.0000227864 x 1,000,000 = 22.7864583333 ppm, rounded up to 23 ppm.

I triple-checked the math, although I freely admit that my math skills are limited, so I might be totally off.
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by jerrytheplater »

Steve. The OP specifically asked for the concentration of the Dyna-Gro, not any one particular nutrient. I asked for clarification, and that is what he wanted to know. He has not replied since.
Jerry Smith
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45 inches (114 cm) rain equivalent per year, approx. evenly spread per month
2012 USDA Hardiness Zone 6b: -5F to OF (-20C to -18C) min.
OWgave
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by OWgave »

jerrytheplater wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 2:53 am Steve. The OP specifically asked for the concentration of the Dyna-Gro, not any one particular nutrient. I asked for clarification, and that is what he wanted to know. He has not replied since.
Hello JTP-

I believe I answered your question on the 3rd thread and was it was the calculation of the liquid fertilizer in its entirety.

Good Growing Everyone 😊

OWgave

Thanks for doing the math there SJ👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by Steve Johnson »

jerrytheplater wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 2:53 am Steve. The OP specifically asked for the concentration of the Dyna-Gro, not any one particular nutrient. I asked for clarification, and that is what he wanted to know. He has not replied since.
Since he did reply, I just wanted to follow through on what you said about diluting 1.05 ml Dyna-Gro/3785 ml water to get an NPK total of 277 ppm. When I asked you to check my math, I went about it all wrong, so let's try again...

I'm diluting 1/2 tsp. Dyna Gro 7-7-7 per gallon of water, and here are my ppm calculations for the N, elemental P, and elemental K being taken up by the cacti:

1/2 tsp. goes into a gallon 1536 times
N .07/1536 x 1,000,000 = 46 ppm
P .03052/1536 x 1,000,000 = 20 ppm
K .0581/1536 x 1,000,000 = 38 ppm
NPK total = 104 ppm.

You're diluting a little less than 1/4 tsp. of the Dyna Gro Foliage Pro 9-3-6 per gallon, so I don't know how you're getting 277 ppm.
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by jerrytheplater »

Steve

OWgave asked for the concentration of the Dyna-Gro, and that is the calculation I gave him. That is the whole product, not just the three elements you calculated. It covers all of the compounds in the Dyna-Gro. You are only calculating N,P, K. You are leaving out all of the trace elements and the Oxygen. OWgave did not explain why he was asking for the concentration of the Dyna-Gro, I just answered his question.
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by MrXeric »

I think what you were asking was how much of your Dyna-gro (7-7-7) fertilizer to use as total concentration diluted in water in ppm.
Anecdotally, half or quarter strength of what is directed in the label should be applied. But the answer really depends on what your substrate is and what type of growth you want from your plants.

So far:

Jerry uses a solution that is 277ppm of Dyna-gro foliage-pro (9-3-6), not including supplemental potassium, weekly to bi-weekly for his plants in a mostly mineral substrate.

Steve uses a solution that is 651 ppm of Dyna-gro (7-7-7). No indication how often he uses it, but I remember reading one of his posts where he describes his pure mineral substrate.

I use a solution that is 651 ppm of Dyna-gro Bloom (3-12-6), 2-3 times a year (roughly once every 6 weeks from late spring to early fall), for plants in a mostly mineral substrate (something like 10-15% organics). I follow the traditional "low-nitrogen" feeding regime and use it only sparingly because I prefer compact growth. After some reading, I think my phosphorus level is too high and I should look for something with a lower P level, but in the 2 years I've used this fertilizer I've yet to notice issues. Probably because 2 years is not enough time to know. :wink:
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by Steve Johnson »

This is a good opportunity to take care of something I've wanted to do for a long time. The following is a presentation I may post as a sticky on the Cultivation forum, and ya'll will be seeing it here first...

Endless amounts of credit go to MikeInOz -- professional horticulturalist with a deep knowledge of cacti and succulents, and the best explainer of ferts I've ever seen. If I do a halfway decent job of teaching what I learned from him, your plants will be the better for it thanks to Mike.

How fertilizers are reported

All fert manufacturers report N as the total amount of Nitrogen available to our plants. In Australia, ferts are reported in elemental P and K values. In other countries (Ireland and the UK, for example), the ferts report P as P2O5 and K as K2O, along with their elemental values on the product label. If the elemental P and K values aren't on the label (as is the case with manufacturers in the US reporting only P2O5 and K2O), use the following calculations:

%P2O5 x 0.436 = P
%K2O x 0.83 = K

The Oxygen in P2O5 and K2O has no nutrient value, so all we're concerned about is getting the right amounts of the elemental P and K available to our cacti and succulents.

Dyna Gro All Pro 7-7-7 and Potassium sulfate

Here's the 7-7-7's chemical analysis:

Image

Available N = 7%
Available P = 3.052%
Available K = 5.81%

Using N as a constant of 1, the NPK ratio is 1:0.44:0.83 -- good balance between N and P, but we need to bring the ratio of K up to 1.5. What about the actual amounts to be taken up through the roots of our plants? Recommended dilution of the 7-7-7 for cacti and succulents is 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of water -- that's what I'm following. Now we'll do some basic math:

1/2 teaspoon goes into a gallon of water 1536 times.

N .07/1536 x 1,000,000 = 46 ppm
P .03052/1536 x 1,000,000 = 20 ppm
K .0581/1536 x 1,000,000 = 38 ppm

The amounts of N and P are good, but we still need to bring the amount of K up to achieve the proper N-to-K ratio. We can do that by supplementing the 7-7-7 with 0-0-52 Potassium sulfate, although it should never go directly into the fert concentrate. What we'll do instead is:

Put 7 grams of Potassium sulfate into a gallon of distilled water (not tap or well water!) and let it dissolve thoroughly -- now you have the stock solution. Add 1/2 teaspoon of 7-7-7 and 5 fluid ounces of Potassium sulfate stock solution to a gallon of water, then water away. And guess what? The plants are now getting 69 ppm. of K per watering, the 1:1.5 N-to-K ratio we're looking for.

The benefits of higher Potassium

I started supplementing my watering solution with Potassium sulfate at the end of summer 2020, so there wasn't enough time to see anything beyond minor improvements in some of my cacti. With a full growing season to assess the results last year, they were pretty amazing -- better stem growth, stronger spine formation on many plants, more prolific flowering on quite a few, and I'll look forward to seeing a continuation of these improvements in 2022.

Minor nutrients

Sulfur is an important one, and the trace amount of S in the 7-7-7 won't cut it, so the supplemental S we get from the Potassium sulfate is bonus.

Two other important minor nutrients are Calcium and Magnesium, the ideal Ca-to-Mg ratio being 4:1, and the 7-7-7 is perfect for that. While the 1/2 tsp. per gallon dilution gives us a good amount of Ca and Mg, we can do even better by adding a Cal-Mag fert to the watering solution. However, there are a couple of things to watch out for:
  • Avoid Cal-Mag ferts that include N -- your plants won't need any more Nitrogen than they already get from the 7-7-7.
  • Try to find a Cal-Mag fert with the 4:1 ratio. Maybe not ideal, but a 3:1 ratio is also acceptable if that's all you're able to find.
If you do supplement your watering solution with Cal-Mag, put the 7-7-7 in first, put the Potassium sulfate stock solution in second, cap the watering jug and shake it a few times, then add the Cal-Mag fert last. How much should we add? If the Ca is 4% and the Mg is 1%, the dilution should be 1/4 tsp. per gallon -- this matches the amount of Ca and Mg provided by the 7-7-7. Then again, as Mike has said a number of times, there's no such thing as too much Calcium, so you may want to go with 1/2 tsp. per gallon.
MrXeric wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 5:44 amNo indication how often he uses it, but I remember reading one of his posts where he describes his pure mineral substrate.
I grow the vast majority of my cacti in a 60% pumice/40% granite gravel mix -- essentially a hydroponic approach, so I need to fertilize every time I water. By the way, my method for calculating ppm is accurate -- not sure how you came up with 651 ppm of Dyna Gro in my watering solution.
MrXeric wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 5:44 amI should look for something with a lower P level, but in the 2 years I've used this fertilizer I've yet to notice issues. Probably because 2 years is not enough time to know. :wink:

That's correct -- based on what I've learned from "veteran" growers, it takes about 5 years before cacti and succulents start complaining about getting the wrong fert. Dyna Gro 7-7-7 comes only by the gallon, so it's kinda expensive. For growers on a tight budget, I highly recommend Dyna Gro Orchid Pro 7-8-6 -- available in 8 oz. bottles, which makes it more affordable. We'll do the math on the P here:

8% P2O5 x 0.436 = 3.488% P available to the plants. Diluting 1/2 tsp. per gallon gives us .03488/1536 x 1,000,000 = 23 ppm. The difference between 20 and 23 ppm is negligible, so if you want a lower P fert and you don't want to pay for a gallon of 7-7-7, go for the 7-8-6. The minor nutrients and micronutrients are the same as the 7-7-7. The only thing you'll want to do is increase the amount of K with the appropriate Potassium sulfate stock solution (it'll be different than the 7-7-7). I can PM you with the details if you'd like.
OWgave wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:16 pmAs the title says, what is a good ppm range using Dyna-Gro All Pro 7-7-7 or any other nutrients for succulents? I’ve read somewhere between 100-150ppm is good, what say ye?
Yeah, I tend to get ahead of myself sometimes...

Before I bothered Jerry, the first thing I should've done is tell OWgave that a combined NPK range of 100-150 ppm. is quite acceptable for cacti and succulents, but he'll need to make sure that he's diluting 1/2 tsp. of the 7-7-7 per gallon of water to achieve it. Amount = dose -- talking about ppm is all well and good, but not useful unless we're talking about dosage too. This is the only way to know if the dosage matches the target range. If it doesn't, we'll be able to adjust up or down accordingly.
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by MrXeric »

Steve Johnson wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 9:15 am not sure how you came up with 651 ppm of Dyna Gro in my watering solution.
1/2 tsp of a solute diluted to a 1 gallon solution rounds out to 651 ppm of that solute. From your calculations: 1,000,000/1536 = 651.041666... From that number you just multiply the mass fraction (which I assume is given as weight by volume percent?) of each element to find the elemental concentration in ppm (eg. 0.07*651ppm = 46ppm N).

I checked my bottle of Dyna-gro Bloom and they note that 1/2tsp. per gal. = 1:1500, which rounds out to 667ppm, giving a bit of a discrepancy...
Steve Johnson wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 9:15 am I highly recommend Dyna Gro Orchid Pro 7-8-6 -- available in 8 oz. bottles, which makes it more affordable.
Thanks for the recommendation! The Dyna-gro Orchid Pro + supplemental potassium sulfate is looking like a good combo and I will look more into it.
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Steve Johnson wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 9:15 am...not sure how you came up with 651 ppm of Dyna Gro in my watering solution.
MrXeric wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 11:57 pm1/2 tsp of a solute diluted to a 1 gallon solution rounds out to 651 ppm of that solute. From your calculations: 1,000,000/1536 = 651.041666... From that number you just multiply the mass fraction (which I assume is given as weight by volume percent?) of each element to find the elemental concentration in ppm (eg. 0.07*651ppm = 46ppm N).
Okay, you skipped a step I wasn't aware of when I said that, but at least I know the step now -- thanks!

This is how I learned about the method I use for calculating ppm:
iann wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:13 pmTo calculate your ppm, take the NPK number, divide by 100 because it is a percent, then divide by your dilution rate (eg. 1oz/gallon is a dilution of approximately 128), and multiply by 1 million. Notice that there is a different ppm for each fertiliser component. So 2-7-7 diluted at 1oz/gallon gives 2/100/128*1000000 = 156ppm of nitrogen, but 546ppm of the other two main nutrients. 546ppm is a pretty strong fertiliser, the sort of thing you might put on an F1 Petunia in full flower.
I just wanted to show our members all of the steps I took to arrive at my ppm calculations for N, P, and K -- important for 2 reasons:
  • The method I learned from Ian is relatively simple, and the end results are accurate enough for our purposes without going through extra (and IMO unnecessary) steps using other calculation methods that only confuse those of us whose math skills are limited.
  • It's important to know the ppm numbers for each of the "big three" nutrients rather than discussing a ppm number that lumps N, P, and K together. I didn't realize just how important this is until Mike educated me on the ratios that make for a well-balanced vs. poorly-balanced fert. And yes, a good balance between Ca and Mg is an important part of it too.
MrXeric wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 11:57 pmThanks for the recommendation! The Dyna-gro Orchid Pro + supplemental potassium sulfate is looking like a good combo and I will look more into it.
You're welcome! The right Potassium sulfate stock solution for the Orchid Pro is easy -- just increase it from 7 to 8 grams per gallon. However, there's one thing I forgot to mention...

Because the Potassium sulfate we'll use comes in powder form, measuring it out with a measuring spoon isn't the best way to go since tiny airspaces around the grains reduce the actual amount of powder going into the stock solution. I have a digital postal scale that toggles between pounds and kg, so all I have to do is toggle it to kg, and that's what I use to measure out 7 g for my stock solution. Unless you already have one, you can buy a digital kitchen scale on Amazon, and I'm seeing them there for less than 10 bucks. If your scale reads in tenths or hundredths, you can be a little more accurate -- 8.1 or 8.13 g for your gallon of stock solution. Nice thing is that whenever you whip up a gallon of watering solution, you'll add the same 5 fluid ounces of stock solution I add when I dilute the 7-7-7. Speaking of, it's time to do some late-night watering! :)
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by jerrytheplater »

MrXeric wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 5:44 amSo far:
Jerry uses a solution that is 277ppm of Dyna-gro foliage-pro (9-3-6), not including supplemental potassium, weekly to bi-weekly for his plants in a mostly mineral substrate.
Just a clarification on what I am using: I do use Dyna-Gro Foliage-Pro as a base, but I tweak it to bring it up to the nutrient ratio suggested by MikeinOz. I add extra Potassium Sulfate and Potassium Mono Phosphate as I detailed above. I buy my dry fertilizers from my friend, but they are also sold at Aquatic Gardening sites. My fertilizer ends up being 9-8-16 using the standard US fertilizer labeling. Using Australian fertilizer labeling, it is 9-3.6-13.5, which would round off to 9-4-14 and since Sulfur is reported in Australia, it is 2.4%.

And, I have seen etiolated growth on my Trichodiademia bulbosum using weekly fertilizing, so I have cut it in half or so-fertilizing every 2-3 weeks and reducing the fertilizer concentration by half.
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Re: What PPM range for Dyna-Gro All Pro?

Post by 4d3d3d3 »

Steve Johnson wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 9:34 am
jerrytheplater wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 2:53 am Steve. The OP specifically asked for the concentration of the Dyna-Gro, not any one particular nutrient. I asked for clarification, and that is what he wanted to know. He has not replied since.
Since he did reply, I just wanted to follow through on what you said about diluting 1.05 ml Dyna-Gro/3785 ml water to get an NPK total of 277 ppm. When I asked you to check my math, I went about it all wrong, so let's try again...

I'm diluting 1/2 tsp. Dyna Gro 7-7-7 per gallon of water, and here are my ppm calculations for the N, elemental P, and elemental K being taken up by the cacti:

1/2 tsp. goes into a gallon 1536 times
N .07/1536 x 1,000,000 = 46 ppm
P .03052/1536 x 1,000,000 = 20 ppm
K .0581/1536 x 1,000,000 = 38 ppm
NPK total = 104 ppm.

You're diluting a little less than 1/4 tsp. of the Dyna Gro Foliage Pro 9-3-6 per gallon, so I don't know how you're getting 277 ppm.
You're assuming the density of the fertilizer is the same as that of water, but it's slightly higher. Dyna-gro 7-7-7 has a specific gravity of 1.3, meaning each mL of fert is 1.3 g.

0.5 tsp = 2.5 mL, so 0.5 tsp of fertilizer weighs 0.5 x 1.3 = 3.25 g.
7% of this is 3.25 g is "N", so 7% x 3.25 g = 0.2275 g of N = 227.5 mg of N

PPM = mg of solute / kg of solvent = 227.5 mg of N / 3.785 kg (the weight of 1 gal of water) = 60.1 ppm of N. Basically what you got if you multiply 46 by 1.3, the density of the fertilizer.

P: 26 ppm elemental
K: 49 ppm elemental
NPK total = 135 ppm

Sorry don't really mean to nitpick, just something I've noticed that often gets omitted in fert ppm calculations. Good fert advice though and I appreciate your posts on the subject
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