Identifying my Mammillarias
- mmcavall
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 11:54 pm
- Location: São Carlos - SP, Southeast Brazil, Cerrado Region
Identifying my Mammillarias
A thread to identify my Mammillarias. A plant per week or so. Only flowering plants.
Starting with a plant that is blooming today.
The plants of the two pots came all together in the same pot (from the supermarket). Then I m noticed that some have yellow, some have red hooks. Also, some have pale pink flowers with more acuminate petals, some have a more strong pink color and the petals are more rounded. Are they variation of the same species? Or completely different things?
Mammillaria crinita subsp wildii is what I have here for them, not sure about this ID.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Starting with a plant that is blooming today.
The plants of the two pots came all together in the same pot (from the supermarket). Then I m noticed that some have yellow, some have red hooks. Also, some have pale pink flowers with more acuminate petals, some have a more strong pink color and the petals are more rounded. Are they variation of the same species? Or completely different things?
Mammillaria crinita subsp wildii is what I have here for them, not sure about this ID.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
Mammillaria crinita is a good suggestion. Flower color and that of spines can vary. Some even consider Mammillaria zeilmanniana as a form of M. crinita. I wouldn't try to determine the subspecies of cacti coming from a commercial place where plants can be cultivars or hybrids.
Mammillaria crinita ssp. wildii has white-creamy flowers by description...
Mammillaria crinita ssp. wildii has white-creamy flowers by description...
If your cacti mess in your job just forget about the job.
°C = (°F - 32)/1.8
°C = (°F - 32)/1.8
- greenknight
- Posts: 4818
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:18 am
- Location: SW Washington State zone 8b
Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
The taxonomy of the M. crinita complex is full of controversy. Formerly, wildii was considered a separate species. As 7george says, there's argument whether zeilmanniana should be considered a species or lumped into crinita. On top of that, they've gotten cross-bred. These could carry genes from both wildii and zeilmanniana - that would explain the variation in spine color and the pink flowers.
Spence
Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
The problem is those saving and sowing their own seeds without isolating the plants before they flower to prevent open pollination. That applies just as much to some seed dealers as to general collectors. Even self fertile plants will outcross given the chance since nature prefers sexual rather than asexual reproduction. That is one reason why some collectors prefer habitat collected seed over nursery or commercially produced.
https://www.lorecentral.org/2018/03/adv ... lants.html
In self sterile plants the problem in cultivation is the average collector has only one plant of that species so any seed produced on it will almost certainly be hybrid. Also with grafted plants or those produced from offsets they can often simply be clones of the same individual and so their own pollen is not compatible therefore any viable seed may be the result of outcrossing in the general collection.
https://www.britannica.com/science/poll ... ollination
https://homeguides.sfgate.com/pollinate ... 22464.html
https://www.lorecentral.org/2018/03/adv ... lants.html
In self sterile plants the problem in cultivation is the average collector has only one plant of that species so any seed produced on it will almost certainly be hybrid. Also with grafted plants or those produced from offsets they can often simply be clones of the same individual and so their own pollen is not compatible therefore any viable seed may be the result of outcrossing in the general collection.
https://www.britannica.com/science/poll ... ollination
https://homeguides.sfgate.com/pollinate ... 22464.html
- mmcavall
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 11:54 pm
- Location: São Carlos - SP, Southeast Brazil, Cerrado Region
Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
Thanks George, Spence and Dave! Thank you very much.
Indeed , the source of these plants is not reliable at all and there may be to much admixture.
I may isolate the different one to avoid crossing, but I'm not sure it worth the effort.
Thanks
Indeed , the source of these plants is not reliable at all and there may be to much admixture.
I may isolate the different one to avoid crossing, but I'm not sure it worth the effort.
Thanks
- mmcavall
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 11:54 pm
- Location: São Carlos - SP, Southeast Brazil, Cerrado Region
Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
Here is another plant of the same group, but acquired independently.
Do this one looks like a "typical" crinita?
There is another one yet to bloom. Pictures soon.
Do this one looks like a "typical" crinita?
There is another one yet to bloom. Pictures soon.
- mmcavall
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 11:54 pm
- Location: São Carlos - SP, Southeast Brazil, Cerrado Region
Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
Doing some effort here to identify this plant #0212. Now I'm following the Mammillaria handbook of John Pilbean.
I have this plant as M. hutchsoniana, but the description says 3-4 central spines, and mine has only one. Except for this, the subspecies louisae matches the description. I have to wait for the fruits because they should be distinctively fat.
I read the description of all species in the Series Ancistracanthae and another species with more "matches" is Mammillaria capensis.
The description of the central spines matches perfectly: " the single central spines are hooked or occasionally straight, 15 to 20 mm long, white at base, shading to red-brown to nearly black at the tip". Well, not perfectly: the centrals of my plant are up to 10 mm, shorter than the description (10 mm is described for louisae).
Also the description of capensis says 13 radials, and I counted 18.
The stigmas of capensis are described as "greenish yellow", and I think it matches (for louisae they are olive-green to brown).
So I can't decide between capensis and hutchsoniana subsp. louisae.
Can someone help? Anyway I will wait for the fruits.
Thanks
I have this plant as M. hutchsoniana, but the description says 3-4 central spines, and mine has only one. Except for this, the subspecies louisae matches the description. I have to wait for the fruits because they should be distinctively fat.
I read the description of all species in the Series Ancistracanthae and another species with more "matches" is Mammillaria capensis.
The description of the central spines matches perfectly: " the single central spines are hooked or occasionally straight, 15 to 20 mm long, white at base, shading to red-brown to nearly black at the tip". Well, not perfectly: the centrals of my plant are up to 10 mm, shorter than the description (10 mm is described for louisae).
Also the description of capensis says 13 radials, and I counted 18.
The stigmas of capensis are described as "greenish yellow", and I think it matches (for louisae they are olive-green to brown).
So I can't decide between capensis and hutchsoniana subsp. louisae.
Can someone help? Anyway I will wait for the fruits.
Thanks
- greenknight
- Posts: 4818
- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:18 am
- Location: SW Washington State zone 8b
Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
I'm inclined toward capensis, but not at all sure... so I'm no help.
Spence
- mmcavall
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- Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 11:54 pm
- Location: São Carlos - SP, Southeast Brazil, Cerrado Region
Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
Thank you, Spence. Maybe you could tell me why you are inclined towards capensis. Thank you
- greenknight
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- Joined: Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:18 am
- Location: SW Washington State zone 8b
Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
The flowers look more like capensis to me, those of hutchsoniana subsp. louisae are larger and paler colored. The single central spine fits capensis, as does the slender stem. However, there's enough variability in both species to make me unsure. As you say, the fruits should clarify it.
Spence
- mmcavall
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Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
Thank you very much, Spence. This makes me feel I'm in the right track.
I understand now that I have to learn to deal with within species variability, and also learn how strict (or less strict) we have to be when reading descriptions. This will come with practice.
Another thing is learn to correctly identify the central spines.
For instance, I have another plant (#0019) also labelled as hutchsoniana which is slightly different. Counting spines on it made me confused: It has clearly a single hooked central but, wait, and what about these four straight spines with brown tips growing among the pure white radials? :
This would change the counting from 1 to 5 centrals.
(Soon it will bloom and I'll be back here with it for identification).
The #0212 capensis/louisae also have doubtful spines like that, but is not easy to see...I can't made a clear cut but looks like there are 3 straight radials with dark tips:
Same doubt with the grahamii: How many centrals? One or two? Look at this straight spine with dark tip: So...what defines a central spine?
I understand now that I have to learn to deal with within species variability, and also learn how strict (or less strict) we have to be when reading descriptions. This will come with practice.
Another thing is learn to correctly identify the central spines.
For instance, I have another plant (#0019) also labelled as hutchsoniana which is slightly different. Counting spines on it made me confused: It has clearly a single hooked central but, wait, and what about these four straight spines with brown tips growing among the pure white radials? :
This would change the counting from 1 to 5 centrals.
(Soon it will bloom and I'll be back here with it for identification).
The #0212 capensis/louisae also have doubtful spines like that, but is not easy to see...I can't made a clear cut but looks like there are 3 straight radials with dark tips:
Same doubt with the grahamii: How many centrals? One or two? Look at this straight spine with dark tip: So...what defines a central spine?
- mmcavall
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 11:54 pm
- Location: São Carlos - SP, Southeast Brazil, Cerrado Region
Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
Spence, and what about M. sheldonii for #0212?
The description matches:
"Radial spines from 9 to 24, white, tipped brown, needle-like, central spines 1 to 4, 1 usually hooked, 1 to 1.5 cm long, brownish, the upper part dark blackish brown. Flowers pale pink or withe with pinkish brown midstripe, about 2 cm long and wide, stigmas green".
(Not sure how green it have to be to fit in the description).
So I have 3 names: capensis, hutchsoniana subsp louisae and sheldonii.
The description matches:
"Radial spines from 9 to 24, white, tipped brown, needle-like, central spines 1 to 4, 1 usually hooked, 1 to 1.5 cm long, brownish, the upper part dark blackish brown. Flowers pale pink or withe with pinkish brown midstripe, about 2 cm long and wide, stigmas green".
(Not sure how green it have to be to fit in the description).
So I have 3 names: capensis, hutchsoniana subsp louisae and sheldonii.
- mmcavall
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 11:54 pm
- Location: São Carlos - SP, Southeast Brazil, Cerrado Region
Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
So the plant #0019 is in bloom and have definitely green stigma...which leads to M. sheldonii or M. hutchsoniana (ssp. louisae.?)
The central spines counting for hutchsoniana is 3 or 4. For sheldonii is 1 to 4..and I see a hooked one, and four other that I can't decide if they are centrals or radials. So to this plant fit in hutchsoniana I have to assume they are centrals.
The hooked spine is shorter than in plant #0212, besides the color of the stigma. So now I know they are different species, which I didn't knew before start studying the descriptions.
The central spines counting for hutchsoniana is 3 or 4. For sheldonii is 1 to 4..and I see a hooked one, and four other that I can't decide if they are centrals or radials. So to this plant fit in hutchsoniana I have to assume they are centrals.
The hooked spine is shorter than in plant #0212, besides the color of the stigma. So now I know they are different species, which I didn't knew before start studying the descriptions.
- greenknight
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Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
M. sheldonii for #0212 looks more likely than hutchsoniana subsp. louisae, I think. Of course, it's yet another one that's quite variable. Arrgh.
Spence
- mmcavall
- Posts: 1436
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2016 11:54 pm
- Location: São Carlos - SP, Southeast Brazil, Cerrado Region
Re: Identifying my Mammillarias
Thank you Spence. It is not easy! Thank you to take part in it.greenknight wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:37 am M. sheldonii for #0212 looks more likely than hutchsoniana subsp. louisae, I think. Of course, it's yet another one that's quite variable. Arrgh.