Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 6/11/2022)

Trouble shoot problems you are having with your cactus.
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Cactipack
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Re: Imidacloprid update (6/8/2020)

Post by Cactipack »

Steve Johnson wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:22 am
Cactipack wrote: Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:53 amThanks for this information. I tried using Bayer a month ago and it did nothing to the root mealy bugs I am currently struggling with. I can't seem to find any Bonide product labeled as dual action rose & flower insect killer. Can you link the exact product please?
What you're looking for is the Bonide Annual Tree & Shrub Insect Control concentrate:

https://www.amazon.com/Bonide-037321006 ... 220&sr=8-7

The dual action rose & flower insect killer you mentioned is from BioAdvanced, not Bonide. That was a "my bad" for steering you in the wrong direction, so apologies for the senior moment.
Thank you for the clarification! I used this product instead of Bayer and it seemed to work well.
Mastru79
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my!

Post by Mastru79 »

The only product that contains Imidacloprid that I seem to be able to find is a product called Sharp Shooter Complete Bug & Insect Spray Concentrate (5.0 g/L Imidacloprid). The label says to mix it at a rate of 10ml per 1 litre of water.

Is this a suitable substitute for the Bayer 3in1 product mentioned in the main post?

Thanks
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my!

Post by Steve Johnson »

Mastru79 wrote: Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:29 amIs this a suitable substitute for the Bayer 3in1 product mentioned in the main post?
A couple of things recently changed after I first posted that presentation -- Bayer is now BioAdvanced, and in their infinite wisdom, BioAdvanced removed Imidacloprid from their 3-in-1 formulation. How they can even call it 3-in-1 anymore is beyond me.

Anyway, Imidacloprid kills mealies and armored scale, but it's useless against fungal infections. Since that's the problem you're dealing, you'll need a fungicide. I have zero experience with fungi attacking cacti, so unfortunately I can't offer any help.
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Mastru79
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 7/26/2020)

Post by Mastru79 »

Thanks for the info
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 7/26/2020)

Post by bartab »

Bought this at HD in NorCal a few weeks ago.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 7/26/2020)

Post by Steve Johnson »

bartab wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:31 pm Bought this at HD in NorCal a few weeks ago.
Okay, so BioAdvanced has Imidacloprid back in their 3-in-1 formulation. Unfortunately .012% is way too low to use as a soil soak against mealies and armored scale, so for that I would definitely go with the Bonide Annual Tree & Shrub Insect Control concentrate. Now let's see what else we have in the 3-in-1:
  • Tau-fluvalinate is a miticide, so that should be effective for killing red spider mites and flat mites.
  • Tebuconazole is a fungicide. Seems to work well on benign fungal blooms called "the creeping cruds". I've seen this only on Rebutias and Sulcorebutias, although other species may be affected by it. My part of L.A. is rather humid, so humidity may have something to do with it. However, for severe fungal infections like what Mastru79 was posting about here, I don't think it would be strong enough to do any good. If the infection was less severe? Perhaps.
Tau-fluvalinate and Tebuconazole aren't systemics, but the 3-in-1 spray's transdermal action gets them into the skin of our plants. The trick is to spray at night so their stomata are open to receive the full transdermal effect -- much better than contact sprays such as alcohol.
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Shane
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 7/26/2020)

Post by Shane »

Steve Johnson wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:43 am Tau-fluvalinate and Tebuconazole aren't systemics, but the 3-in-1 spray's transdermal action gets them into the skin of our plants. The trick is to spray at night so their stomata are open to receive the full transdermal effect -- much better than contact sprays such as alcohol.
Are you sure Tebuconazole is solely transdermal (and not systemic)? My 3 in 1 (from the era when it was actually 3 in 1) specifically says not to spray it on foliage (and to only to apply it to soil)
Los Angeles, California (USA)
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 7/26/2020)

Post by Steve Johnson »

Shane wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:44 amAre you sure Tebuconazole is solely transdermal (and not systemic)? My 3 in 1 (from the era when it was actually 3 in 1) specifically says not to spray it on foliage (and to only to apply it to soil)
When I visited Craig and Denise Fry at their Costa Mesa nursery back in 2014, Craig told me that he was using the 3-in-1 as a spray on his cacti and succulents for the miticide and fungicide effects. I've been doing that on my cacti as well, although what you just said does make me wonder if the Tau-fluvalinate and Tebuconazole are in fact systemics. Unfortunately I don't have enough time to finish my thought here, so I'll do a follow-up post (hopefully tomorrow night).
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 7/26/2020)

Post by Steve Johnson »

Okay, took longer than I expected to finish my thought, but I think this'll be worth waiting for...
Here's an interesting quote from
Agrovista
:
  • How do curative fungicides work?

    This type of fungicide is considered to have anti-sporulant activity which helps to slow disease development by limiting the reproductive potential of the fungus. A curative fungicide must be able to penetrate, into the turf, move systemically and be able to selectively kill the invading fungi. They are designed to target specific enzymes or proteins made by the fungi.

    DMI (Demethylation Inhibitors)

    A Triazole, such as tebuconazole is classed as a DMI systemic fungicide but tends to be found in combination with other active ingredients, rather than marketed as a single active ingredient..... Tebuconazole’s systematic action [my emphasis] is effectively working to prevent and eradicate fungi. This chemical compound specifically eliminates fungi by inhibiting their ability to spread spores, which slows growth.
Well, dang -- the tebuconazole in BioAdvanced 3-in-1 is a systemic! Can't remember where I read this, but someone on the forum claimed that fungicides can only prevent fungal infections, not cure them. True if a fungicide is transdermal, but it sounds to me like tebuconazole's systemic action might actually cure a fungal infection. Of course, I'm sure that'll depend on how bad the infection is, but this could be good news for growers who are dealing with fungus problems on their plants.

As Shane pointed out, the 3-in-1 instructions state that we shouldn't spray it on foliage, and apply it only to soil. For those of us who do soil soaks for the Imidacloprid anyway, at least the tebuconazole is a bonus preventative against fungal infections. The Tau-fluvalinate miticide component of 3-in-1 is definitely not a systemic, so you can use it as a spray against pest mites for its transdermal effect. I've been spraying my mite-prone cacti with it off and on over the years, zero harm to the plants -- but as I've said in the past, you should spray only at night.

And now for a very important heads-up...

Bartab showed us his 3-in-1 spray bottle -- fine if you're using it as a spray to attack pest mites. If you're using it as a soil soak, you'll need the concentrate containing 0.47% Imidacloprid. I have bottles of both, and 3 years ago I reached for the wrong bottle when I was trying to knock down a bad scale infestation on one of my cacti. That mistake cost me an Obregonia I could've saved, so let this be a lesson to y'all!
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yukomkom
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 7/26/2020)

Post by yukomkom »

Hi Steve, thanks a lot for such detailed article. Recently I've bought some orchid for my wife from untrusted source and today I've found more than 30 of my precious cacti with root mealybugs . 8-[
I live in Ukraine and it's not easy (but possible) to find here listed above pesticide solutions and even worse with finding utilization center. For me environment is important, so I decided to stick with soap water solution. I like Dodi's images and H2O2 approach after.
Still I've minor questions, I couldn't find answer to in this thread. How long should I do bathing in soap water, how much soap I should put into 1 litter of water and does temperature really matters or simple warm water 25-30 degrees Celsius is enough?
Thanks a lot in advance!
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 7/26/2020)

Post by Steve Johnson »

yukomkom wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:19 pmHow long should I do bathing in soap water, how much soap I should put into 1 litter of water and does temperature really matters or simple warm water 25-30 degrees Celsius is enough?
Thanks a lot in advance!
I sincerely apologize for taking so long to respond. Unfortunately I can't answer your questions about the soapy water treatment because I've never used it myself -- a major benefit of still being able to get Imidacloprid here in the US. However, I can tell you that warm water by itself isn't enough to kill root mealies.
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 7/26/2020)

Post by yukomkom »

Hi Steve, thanks for answering. Not a problem, at that point as addition to your great post I have already found some materials and risked to do it. It's dormant period right now here in Ukraine. For now cacti looks healthy. In 2 months they should start active growth, if everything will be OK I'm going to post here in more details what I've done and the results.
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 7/26/2020)

Post by greenknight »

yukomkom wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 2:19 pm How long should I do bathing in soap water, how much soap I should put into 1 litter of water and does temperature really matters or simple warm water 25-30 degrees Celsius is enough?
Sorry I missed this question earlier - I have used a soap solution to kill root mealybugs, it's really not an exact science. I've seen recommendations to use anywhere from I tablespoon (15 ml) per gallon (about 4 liters) to 1 tablespoon per quart (about a liter). i didn't measure that carefully, but what I used was closer to the weak end of that range and it worked. I just used tap water (we have soft water, hard water should not be used), didn't worry about the temperature. The only concern about temperature is that phytotoxicity can occur if it's used in extremely hot weather, I think I would avoid very hot water for that reason.

I did a soil drench, just plunged pots and all into the soap solution. Left them submerged until they stopped bubbling and I was sure they were fully saturated - 15 minutes or more. Of course, the soil remained wet with soap solution for quite a while after that. You really should repeat the treatment, to kill any new hatchlings, since soap doesn't destroy the eggs. I didn't, since the pots stayed damp a long time, and soap is effective as long as it's wet. The bugs didn't come back.

Good chance that it worked, however you did it. It wouldn't hurt to repeat the treatment next spring, anyway. (I'm just lazy :) )
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Re: Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 7/26/2020)

Post by C And D »

I changed poisons over the years.
I don't use the Bayer 3 in 1 anymore, never observed it acting as a systemic,
and I still had mites and thrips

I switched to Spectracide with Triazicide (tb/qt)
and it worked well on mites and mealies
but I would spray some on flowers invested with thrips, and the thrips would be back in an hour.
The Haworthia flowers were the most problematic, since they hid in the flowers and would counter my pollination attempts.

So after reading some of Steve Johnson's posts in this thread, I decided to try Avid.

My local farm supply had a generic Avid, call Abamectin 0.15 EC, 1.9%
which was very expensive.
I read the label and it said it was good for Thrips, that's all I needed to know, so I spent the well spent money.

But Instead of using it alone, I started using it in combination with the Spectracide, both at full strength.
Just last month I spayed my entire yard, drenching the soil and over the tops of all plants, and no plant has shown a problem with it.
Cassula exilis ssp cooperi is one plant that some poisons devastate, but the new combo.

It has really worked against the thrips, I still get some here and there, but a quick spray of the invested flowers takes care of it.
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Steve Johnson
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Mealies and flat mites and scale -- oh, my! (Updated 7/2/2021)

Post by Steve Johnson »

After years of using the Bayer Advanced (now BioAdvanced) 3-in-1 for Imidacloprid soil soaks, I ditched it in favor of the Bonide Annual Tree & Shrub Insect Control concentrate I discussed in my 7/26/20 update. Diluting only 1/4 cup per gallon of water really is better than the cup per gallon I needed for the 3-in-1. I gave my collection its preventative soil soak with the Bonide last month, and there's a little trick to diluting it...

When you pour your 1/4 cup into a gallon jug of water, the product doesn't dissolve quickly like the 3-in-1 did. Make sure you have the jug's cap on tight (but not too tight!), and shake like the dickens. After a couple of minutes, take off the cap and see if the Bonide is thoroughly dissolved. If it's not, put the cap back on, and shake like the dickens again, then take off the cap to see if it's thoroughly dissolved. It took me 3 tries and about 10 minutes before I was satisfied with the full dilution, although I suppose you could let your jug(s) sit for an hour or two after you do a vigorous shake-shake-shake. The point is to make sure that you don't have clots of Bonide concentrate floating around in the water when you apply your soaks.
C And D wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:26 pm I changed poisons over the years.
I don't use the Bayer 3 in 1 anymore, never observed it acting as a systemic,
and I still had mites and thrips
Not on mites and thrips, but it does (or at least did) act as a systemic on mealies and armored scale. If you had mealybug problem and your 3-in-1 wasn't effective, here are the possibilities I can think of:
  • You were diluting too much (I kinda doubt that was the case).
  • You were using the 3-in-1 after the brand name changed from Bayer Advanced to BioAdvanced. If so and BioAdvanced took Imidacloprid out of their formulation, unfortunately you were "shooting blanks" (so to speak). Quite frankly I don't trust BioAdvanced ever since they did that, then put it back in. Is it in or back out again? Between you, me, and the lamppost, the unreliability is another good argument in favor of the Bonide product.
  • IMO this is the worst possibility -- Imidacloprid-resistant mealies. Ideally we should be rotating pesticides, but rotating a neonicotinoid with another neonicotinoid won't get us anywhere. If there's a non-neonicotinoid systemic effective against mealies we can buy in California, I'm all ears. And the info could come in handy for our members living outside of California.
C And D wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:26 pm My local farm supply had a generic Avid, call Abamectin 0.15 EC, 1.9%
which was very expensive.
I got my Avid in a small and affordable quantity through the Flytrap Store, as I pointed out in the presentation. Excellent miticide, and at least I can rotate that with TetraSan. Now here's a question for you, Craig...

Avid and TetraSan are transdermal sprays. Transdermal action may have a systemic effect on leafy plants, but I'm not sure if that would apply to cacti and succulents. If it doesn't, would a soil soak with Avid be effective as a systemic? Once they're applied, the active ingredients in transdermal sprays last for about 30 days, and I'm hoping that an Avid soil soak would last a lot longer. Any thoughts on the matter?
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
My location: Los Angeles, CA (Zone 10b)
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