Lophophora...legalities question

[peterb]

An excellent source for incredibly well researched and detailed info on Lophophora williamsii and other species, including the ethnobotanical angle, can be found in Peyote: The Divine Cactus, by Anderson (the same guy who wrote The Cactus Family). Which you can get here: http://www.exoticplantbooks.com/detail/?product_id=329" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Peyoteros are stone cold experts at taxonomy because the only plant desired by Native American Church members and the traditional Huichol is williamsii. The other plants are not acceptable for reasons stated above.

There are now only two species of Lophophora accepted by the Anglo-American Taxonomy Militia: williamsii and diffusa. This reflects some rather aggressive lumping and is certainly going to be corrected in coming years. Dr. Martin Terry (editor of Haseltonia) is doing some very detailed cladistic research on the genus and will probably publish a complete revision someday. In looser taxonomic environments, many species are recognized. but there is really only one williamsii and that is the one the peyoteros harvest, quite knowledgeably.

peterb

[Saxicola]

Cladistics isn't going tell you much about how many species there are as the analysis isn't designed to do that. Plant chemistry is definitely a valid characteristic to use in plant taxonomy, and one that is underutilized. I'm not in a position to say how many species there are, but while it is entirely possible that the taxonomists have over-lumped things, indigenous people (worldwide) are often assumed to be better taxonomists than they really are. Most of them don't care or even have a real concept of the difference between species unless the species has some use. If several very similar species are equally useful (for whatever) then they may be seen all as one "species". Similarly, if one population of a plant is useful but for whatever reason a different population of the plant isn't as good for their purposes they would be seen as different "species" in their minds even if every taxonomist in the world would consider it a single species.

What the truth is with Lophophora, I don't know, but it shouldn't be automatically assumed to be more than two species just because people that use Peyote as a drug think so. As a taxonomist I'm also the first to admit that we are entirely fallible!

[oldcat61]

Bottom line: I think any of the Lophophora are so pretty. Where can I buy one safely? Online seems scary with all the customs stuff. Are there any collectors with one or two to spare? Sue

[DaveW]

I suppose it's a case of what your laws say. If MANUFACTURING OF A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE is what is prohibited they would have to prove in court beyond reasonable doubt you were manufacturing the substances. If possession of named species is what the law says then possessing them for any purpose would be illegal? Mind you they would have to prove what species it was from among similar species and no doubt state which botanical work they use as their reference.

What officials may try and what courts will let them get away with are often two different things. A decade or so ago the police in the UK used to regularly seize what they considered pornographic magazines from the printers, but the publishers then used to take the police to court and the judiciary made the police give them all back again since the legal definition of pornography was not the same as public officials concept! It's what the law says that matters, but it's final interpretation is down to the judiciary, not public officials.

[Saxicola]

DaveW,

Unfortunately in the US it is pretty clear cut that the mere possession of a plant is violating the law. The UK has much more sensible laws on this.

[Peterthecactusguy]

in some states they are more strict than in others. I am not sure about what each state's laws state but.. I really think for the average collector, if you have a Loph or two you are probably safe. Here in AZ I WOULD NOT suggest calling the sheriff and telling them you have one... our Private Prison industry would like nothing better than to lock you up for having one..

that being said I will continue to grow mine, and if I get caught.. well.. I get caught. However, and here is a gigantic disclaimer that I am making.. I am growing mine for horticultural purposes only and enjoy watching plants grow and flower. And boy are the pink flowers beautiful. BTW as another disclaimer, I don't even know what an L. williamsii looks like, so I should be safe, I think..

[Saxicola]

I just realized I wasn't clear enough in my last post. Lophophora williamsii is the plant that is definitely illegal throughout the US. All the other species are fine in every state except California which has a blanket ban on the genus. I've wondered if the Feds will ever decide to do a raid on Big Bend National Park seeing as how they are being grown in the park!

[Subverted]

I've wondered if the Feds will ever decide to do a raid on Big Bend National Park seeing as how they are being grown in the park!

How about a sensitive plant reintroduction project?

[majcka]

I just realized I wasn't clear enough in my last post. Lophophora williamsii is the plant that is definitely illegal throughout the US. All the other species are fine in every state except California which has a blanket ban on the genus. I've wondered if the Feds will ever decide to do a raid on Big Bend National Park seeing as how they are being grown in the park!

You Americanos have a very interesting laws. Forgive me to be blond enough not to understand that. A plant can freely grow in nature (or on somebodys land - as they are nature to Texas) but MUST NOT grow in someones greenhouse or at someones windowsill or porch? Because with one plant one can do what exactly?????? Or even two plants for that matter.

[Sharpy]

Maj, No we have dumb laws not "interesting" ones, lol.

I so wish Kada (Loph) would jave time to chime in on this but he has been very very busy lately. He could talk to no extent on this subject.

He had a article he wrote published towards the end of last year on this very matter. But for the life of me I can not remember what cactus journal it was for. I know it costs $6 to purchase, if that rings a bell as to what publication it would be.

Will Email him when I get time and find out.

[oldcat61]

So if it's only one kind of lophophora that's "illegal", where can I buy the ones that are OK? I think some of the other varieties are even prettier. Sue

[Subverted]

Mesa Garden sells seed of most of the other species.

[oldcat61]

Thanks subverted but I'm too darn old for seeds. Probably never had that much patience. Sue

[Peterthecactusguy]

haha I should grow some of the others too. All I have is one type. BTW what do buds on L. williamsii look like hypothetically?

[Mostly_Harmless]

Maj, No we have dumb laws not "interesting" ones, lol.

I so wish Kada (Loph) would jave time to chime in on this but he has been very very busy lately. He could talk to no extent on this subject.

He had a article he wrote published towards the end of last year on this very matter. But for the life of me I can not remember what cactus journal it was for. I know it costs $6 to purchase, if that rings a bell as to what publication it would be.

Will Email him when I get time and find out.

That would be "Sustainable Lophophora Cultivation" from Vol1 Issue2 (Aug 2012) of Dragibus

http://www.dragibusmag.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;