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Echinomastus spines

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Echinomastus spines

Postby bruno » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:52 pm

can you tell these species? :D

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and varieties of course. Old names are accepted :wink:
Last edited by bruno on Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby daiv » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:53 pm

This looks like a task for Peterb!
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Postby jeffrey6115 » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:01 pm

What ever they are I would like #1,3,5 and 9. Like those spines!!
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Postby iann » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:09 pm

Cant' tell what they are because there are too many spines in the way :oops:
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Postby CoronaCactus » Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:51 pm

Great photos!

#3 E. laui
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Postby tumamoc » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:16 am

:-k. The only ones I will hazard a guess on are:

#4 erectocentus
#6 intertextus
#9 johnsonii
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Postby peterb » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:57 am

hmmm..I really don't know the Mexican ones so well! But I will try:

durangensis
unguispinus
laui
erectocentrus
durangensis mapimiensis?
intertextus
acunensis?

not sure on the last three. They look like forms of durangensis to me. :-)

I look forward to learning more about the Mexican Echinomastus from you, Bruno.

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Postby bruno » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:47 pm

So let' s talk about mexican species, that is E. unguispinus and its varieties or forms.

E. unguispinus (Eng) B&R ( pics 5 and 10) was described as having 20-25 radial spines spreading irregularly, withish to yellowish, grey with age and 4-9 tick central spines straw to horn coloured to chalcky grayish blue, with brownish-black upper half. The upper centrals ascending to appressed, lowest central recurved and "fang like".

In E. durangensis (Ruenge) B&R radial spines are thinner, longer and more numerous, up to 30, they can be white (pic 8 SB46) or yellow (pic 9), centrals are darker (more so in the upper part) and longer, the upper ones ascending, the lower porrect.

E. Laui Frank & Zecher 1978 (pic 3) is like unguispinus but smaller and with fewer, shorter spines. It is the southernmost form, found by Lau in Salinas, SLP. It is treated by most as an extreme form of E. unguispinus, even though F&Z report their habitats are about 500km apart.

Last, pic 1 shows a plant labelled E. mapimiensis Backeberg, a lost name. It was described as smaller, with more delicate spination and whiter than E. unguispinus. This is neither matching the plant in pic 1, which comes labelled as mapimiensis with no fn, nor plants from seeds of SB1090, which I suspect will grow like that of pic 1. E. mapimiensis was long searched, G&F distributed under this name plants collected south of Jimenez in the late 60es as G&F783, but later apologized saying: "Apparently E. mapimiensis is just a synonim of E. unguispinus which is fairly common near Mapimi, Durango, and our "mapimiensis" checks out well with E. durangensis".


Others are
2. E. mariposensis
4. E. dasyacanthus
6. E. intertextus
7. E. warnockii
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Postby peterb » Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:57 am

Wow, I got maybe 1 or 2 right out of 10. That's what I love about growing and learning about these plants, always something new to learn. Thanks for the info on unguispinus/durangensis Bruno.

Mesa Garden sells "durangensis mapimiensis", which I am growing. I can't believe I missed the mariposensis and warnockii!

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Postby bruno » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:19 pm

I put the pics of warnockii (kakui form) and durangensis in a row just to show how similar they are, the only distinguishing characters being the presence of a long lower central in durangensis which is wanting in warnockii. Besides that the color of the stem is darker in warnockii and of course the flowers are pretty much different.

I took a few pictures today

warnockii

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durangesis

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the other form of durangensis with yellowish spines

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And talking about unguispinus (or durangensis) mapimiensis

the plant coming from a german nursery, which I suspect being sb1090 (it didn' t flower yet :| ) but is nice :)

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These are seedlings of sb1090, I would be curious to see yours :)

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These are seedlings of durangensis from self produced seeds

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this one looking much warnockii like :wink:

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coming to warnockii these are 2 yrs old seedlings from the kakui plant, possibly hybrids as this is the only flowering size warnockii I am growing

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little bit older warnockii

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warnockii gdl31 (don' t find however this in the fndatabase...)

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kakui
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again kakui

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pallidus sb417

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again sb417

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These warnockii seedlings look quite similar and I am curious to see if there is any difference in the flowers. E. kakui was introduced by Backeberg as a provisional name for pallidus, withouth type sp. and is treated by most as syn. of Warnockii as Echinocactus erectocentrus var. pallidus Weniger.

I took also some pictures of intertextus, but that' s for another post :D
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Postby peterb » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:07 pm

Great photos! I'll post some pics soon. I'm learning a lot about this genus from you Bruno, much appreciated. There's so little in the literature on these plants!

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Postby peterb » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:49 am

Bruno, a few pics:

Echinomastus durangensis 'mapimiensis' SB1090:

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Echinomastus unguispinus from Gomez Palacio:

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E. warnockii 'kakui' SB742:
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Postby Tony » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:38 am

I can tell you I like them Bruno, thats about it. :)
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Postby diamondstate » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:28 pm

Wow, those warnockii spines are amazing! :shock:
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Postby bruno » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:32 pm

thank you Peter, great plants and interesting discussion.

Kakuis are both sb742, your plant bearing thicker, shorter radials and thick upper central. Backeberg' s lexicon says: "RSP 10-14, 1-2.5 cm long acicular, horn coloured, violet grey above.... Csp 1 strongly erect 1.5 cm long , violet grey in the lower part". In my pic there is not a clearly distinguished central, while I can see one upper central in your close up as well as in my kakui seedlings, which look similar to your plant.
I am curious to see the flowers.

Your mapimiensis looks much closer to Backeberg' s description, with whitish radials. After seeing that, I would exclude that my plant from Germany is a mapimiensis, while I still hope that the seedlings are.

This E. unguispinus from gomez palacio is just another instance of the many outstanding forms of this species.

I' ll come back later on this

BTW I have a copy of of Backeberg' s Die Cactaceae Vol V, unfortunately don' t speak German, is anybody willing to translate the chapter on Echinomastus? :D
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