Orogrande, NM Hybrid Cacti 2015

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hegar
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Re: Orogrande, NM Hybrid Cacti 2015

Post by hegar »

Hallo K.W.,

viel Glück bei der Kaktussafari in Arizona. In der Sonorawüste gibt es ja auch eine ganze Menge interessanter Kakteen. :)

Harald
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hegar
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Re: Orogrande, NM Hybrid Cacti 2015

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Hello Dean,
I went through my Orogrande Hybrid Cacti post and only now realized, that you had posted a message while I was still adding images to my post. I totally overlooked your entry and apologize for not having noticed it and answered you.

Well, I do thank you for your input and the correction of one of the Opuntia member's names. While I do have a good number of prickly pear cacti in my plantings, the species trichophora is not among them. So I looked at home at what seemed to be similar to the plant encountered in Orogrande and the closest I got was O. areanaria.

It was interesting to hear you mention the Echinocereus mojavensis flower color variety. I wonder though, if those plants also have a huge difference in spine arrangement. Some of the plants present in Orogrande have the growth habit and characteristics of E. dasyacanthus, although the blossom color can vary quite a bit. I have even found a hybrid, that did have the spines that looked very similar to those found on Echinocereus viridiflorus ssp. chloranthus, but the blossoms were larger and fewer and of an orange color.

At Orogrande, NM we do have three possible parents, that flower at approximately the same time and grow in the same area and based on the widely varying body shape, spination, and flower color I am quite convinced, that we are dealing here with naturally occurring hybrids and not a species that displays a wide phenotypical range of expression.

Harald
A. Dean Stock
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Re: Orogrande, NM Hybrid Cacti 2015

Post by A. Dean Stock »

Harald, I think that you are correct; the flower and spine variation at Orogrande is very likely due to hybridization. The population of E. mojavensis I mentiond has a wide range of colors and tends to have very small stems with relatively weak spines. They form small clumps but often bloom on a single stem. If there were any other species of Echinocereus in the area I'd think they were hybrid derived but in this case no other Echinocereus species occurs very close to the locality. I mentioned the odd E. mojavensis merely to show that great variation in flower color, and stem morphology can occur in Echinocereus without hybridization but did not mean to infer that the Orogrande populations was not hybrid derived.
Dean
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hegar
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Re: Orogrande, NM Hybrid Cacti 2015

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Hello Dean,
I am glad, that you are not disputing what I had said in the thread about the "Orogrande Hybrid Cacti". Although I do have a B.S. degree in Biology and an M.S. in Horticulture, I am in no way an expert in the field of genetics. However, there are some knowledgeable people who have studied that population and all agree, that those are indeed natural hybrid plants.

It was very enlightening though to hear from you about the diversity of flower color expressed in Echinocereus mojavensis. Perhaps this is due to the presence of other species that contributed to the genome, but have disappeared from the habitat a long time ago?
The Orogrande Hybrids are not sterile. One of my plants produced many fruits and I am quite sure, that the seed will germinate.
I noticed, that the flower colors of the plants that do resemble E. coccineus are moving in the direction of "pink". It is becoming more and more difficult, to even find a plant that looks like a "pure" E. coccineus. The few plants that express the E. dasyacanthus morphology seem to be holding up better. Most of those are still yellow and the hybrid is not easily encountered.

I have been told by members of my local cactus club, that in some places there are Echinocereus dasyacanthus plants, that do have pink flowers. With all these color combinations it is no wonder, that some taxonomists in the past placed the E. dasyacanthus as a subspecies or variety into E. pectinatus. As you said, a lot of work needs to be done, in order to figure out, how the classification of a number of cactus species within certain genera.

Harald
A. Dean Stock
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Re: Orogrande, NM Hybrid Cacti 2015

Post by A. Dean Stock »

I don't think that the variation in flower color in E. mojavensis is from hybridization, either old or new. The genetics of flower color in Echinocereus are not well known as yet but flower color genetics has lots of room for mutations in control genes and deletions of color genes that allow other colors already in the pigment array to show. For instance, red color in E. mojavensis also has a yellow component to it. If mutations occur in the betacyanin gene (s) it is possible to get everything from dark pink to yellow showing up. The yellow color is controlled by another set of genes. Species that are consistently yellow flowered are much more difficult to change to pink or red without introgression from another species. For this reason, when you see a few pink flowered plants showing up in a species that is consistently yellow you should suspect hybridization. Hybridization is much more common among Opuntia and Echinocereus species than most taxonomists believe.
Dean
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vlani
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Re: Orogrande, NM Hybrid Cacti 2015

Post by vlani »

Speaking of Orogrande E.dasiacanthus. My impression is that pretty much 100% of them are all hybrids. Hybridisation does not effect flower colors much - the great majority of the plants are yellow-flowered, though there is some variation in flower size and shape, and slight variation in color, at least slight in human visible spectrum. But the spines of all of them are the sign of hybrid origin - the straight dasiacantus has much smoother pectinate spines, more like rigidissimus. The other population of E.dasiacanthus I have seen, some 30 miles SW at Anthony gap - is more like the straight species in my view. I'm sure you Hegar is familiar with those plants, pretty much in you back yard.
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hegar
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Re: Orogrande, NM Hybrid Cacti 2015

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You are correct with your statement, vlani, that our Echinocereus dasyacanthus does not have the pectinate spines found with E. rigidissimus and E. pectinatus. They are generally more protruding from the plant body, giving the cactus a slightly unkempt appearance.
If you have looked at the digital images I posted in prior years, you will notice, that there are a number of plants, which do have color combinations that are unusual for E. dasyacanthus. During my first trip - I believe it was in 2006 - I photographed the image shown on my avatar. I have also come across pink and red versions of plants with the spination resembling that of the yellow-flowered specimens.
Unfortunately, our guide always wants to go during the flowering period of the claret cup hybrids. The reason most likley is, that those are much more numerous than the plants that exhibit the characteristics of the Texas Rainbow (E. dasyacanthus). The timing of the visit is also not as important, because the claret cups, including the hybrids, flower for a longer time period (each blossom lasting about one week) and they do produce more flower buds. Those do not all open up on the same day, thus extending the season that this plant is in flower.
Some club members went last weekend to Orogrande, NM, but their reason was to see the beehive cactus Echinocereus stramineus in bloom.

I have not yet come across a population of E. dasyacanthus with spines that are as closely held to the stem as those of E. rigidissimus or E. pectinatus. I am going to ask the club members, if any of them have been to the location you described.

Harald
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