Trichocereus (T. pachanoi, T. peruvianus) to get high!

Created by popular request. Share what you know about man's past and present use of cacti.
YumAz
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Post by YumAz »

How about a Lophophora grafted to a San Pedro?
http://leda.lycaeum.org/?ID=14040
DieTer-Xz
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Post by DieTer-Xz »

Michael, it's great to see that someone is trying to increase the general understanding of these plants. On the forum we quite often get people asking about how they should use this plant.
peterb
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Post by peterb »

Hi- I also strongly recommend Edward T. Anderson's "Peyote: The Divine Cactus", recently updated and reissued in paperback. Anderson's taxonomic approach is lumpy (surprise!) but the historical and other info is excellent.

Anderson also had an article in the CSSA Journal a few years back on the "peyoteros" of Texas and efforts to do more seed raising and propagation of L. williamsii.

A permit for ornamental use of these plants ought to be available. And it's absurd to classify hallucinogenic plants in the same legal category as highly addictive opiates. And the entire war on drugs in America is a dismal failure anyway!

but that's for another forum...

peterb
Oisterboy
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Post by Oisterboy »

Thankfully, a dose of this cactus is an entire foot length. The extraction of the alkaloids isn't something your average high-school graduate can do either, so the number of people abusing this wonderful cactus are few and far between.

Interesting story, if you don't mind...

I have a friend who is 100% native American. Unfortunately, he moved out west a few years ago. I remember his mother always used to tell us about the peyote ceremony, and we would ALWAYS ask her to try it. She told her son he could, someday, but told me that since I was white, it wouldn't be the same for me.

After years and years of us asking her to let us try it, eventually she did. She brewed up the tea and told us we had to try to drink it without vomiting, or complaining about the taste. Something about how the person who learned to enjoy the bitterness would enjoy the experience more.

Long story short...it was incredible. It was the most beautiful experience of my life, and made me respect these wonderful cacti even more than I already did! She even told me that I handled myself like a gentleman, and that I "must have some native blood in me" haha.

Now, a few years later, I find myself growing these cacti (without the intention of just eating them, obviously) with great, great respect.

I couldn't imagine eating my cacti...they have taken too long to grow, and I've given them too much love at this point! :)
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Post by daiv »

Oisterboy wrote:Thankfully, a dose of this cactus is an entire foot length. The extraction of the alkaloids isn't something your average high-school graduate can do either, so the number of people abusing this wonderful cactus are few and far between.
I like the technical data on this. Also, as I understand it, the cultivated Lophophora plants do not have a concentration high enough to do much good. Not sure if this is true or not. I guess if it was, it would be nice to lift the laws banning cactus growers from growing it. That said, I may have defeated my own point.

As far as the whole "Native American" thing goes... I find there is a major mis-conception on this whole topic in several regards. First and formost is the idea that it was prevelent all over the continent, but I think very little of this was used far from habitat. Not that trading didn't take place, but it wasn't nearly as prevelent as folk-lore would have us think. (see "Young Guns")

Second is the extent of the use where it was used. As if the tribes were like the "Borg" and all of one unified mind on everything. Certainly there was a cultural acceptance of the ritual in general, but again the bulk of their life was centered around getting something to eat, not having "cactus-induced visions". I think many people have this idea swapped in their minds.

Finally, the "sacred-ness" of the whole thing is also exaggerated. Sure the cultural norm was that it was a sacred or spiritual experience was most certainly abused by individuals. Not every person in the tribe was the perfect adherent to the prevailing belief system. I'm quite sure some just liked tripping out, while others didn't want anything to do with it.

In short, we all too often think of past civilizations in idealistic concepts of "this is the way it was". I think people 200 years from now will probably have a tighter and more cohesive definition of our culture than we do right now. And if we were to watch the History Channel HG (holograph) of 2210, we'd probably be scoffing at the way our lives would be protrayed.

Anyway, just some philosophical opinion on the subject - which you all can take with a grain of salt as I don't really feel that strongly about it.
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hoven5th
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Post by hoven5th »

Oisterboy wrote:Thankfully, a dose of this cactus is an entire foot length. The extraction of the alkaloids isn't something your average high-school graduate can do either, so the number of people abusing this wonderful cactus are few and far between.
You don't have to extract the pure alkaloids to get the experience. Making a tea with a foot of the whole Trichocereus pachanoi plant works just fine. Or so I'm told :wink:

Everyone who I've ever talked to about this topic has claimed yo have a positive experience, often using the term "beautiful". Have you ever read The Doors of Perception by Aldous Huxley? If you haven't, I highly recommend it. a common stereotype about people who use illegal intoxicants (never alcohol, of course!) is that they are stupid, flaky losers, but there are deep philosophical reasons for changing the nature of your consciousness. Huxley was an intellectual of the first rate, and certainly didn't fit the stereotype.
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Oisterboy
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Post by Oisterboy »

As a younger guy, I was really into all of that type of stuff. I have read the Doors of Perception for sure.

I started to get interested in cacti through my other ethnobotanicals, but have found that the plants themselves are much more rewarding than their effects in most cases.

Yes, you can make a tea from the cactus, but its still bitter and terrible. The most effective way is to extract the pure mescaline crystals...which is a difficult lab process. The dose of the crystals is in the milligrams, so its much easier to choke down.

Also, from what I understand, the Lophophoras NEED their tap roots in order to produce any substantial amount of mescaline. They will have little (or none) depending upon what they are grafted to. And, it takes a full 5 years upon de-grafting for them to produce the alkaloid content peyote is supposed to have.

So, like I said, thankfully most people aren't patient enough to abuse them :) Most of the abuse that happens comes from people getting wild ones, I suspect. :idea:
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Waxsimulacra08
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Post by Waxsimulacra08 »

Oisterboy wrote:I started to get interested in cacti through my other ethnobotanicals, but have found that the plants themselves are much more rewarding than their effects in most cases.

So, like I said, thankfully most people aren't patient enough to abuse them :) Most of the abuse that happens comes from people getting wild ones, I suspect. :idea:
Excellent points.

I too have my previous dwellings in ethnobotanicals to thank for my current and seemingly permanent obsession with the Cactaceae.

I too would never consider killing any of my plants for the sake of an experience.

And as far as the raping and poaching of the natural populations.

Some of this is due to the fact that you can't cultivate them.

How is it that 2/5 countries where L. williamsii is illegal are the ONLY 2 countries it grows.
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king_hedes
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Post by king_hedes »

I read part of that book doors of perception
anyone read that book timewave zero from Terrence Mckinna(Talking about 2012)
The indians would savor the bitter taste and chew as much as possible and would fast a few day befor eating.
Thats one good thing that they say they taste like a battery mixed with a cucumber if they tasted good you would see a lot more poachers.
Any yes that is horrible how they class stuff in this country theses days
And they do put a bad rap on this kinda stuff saying you will go crazy and never be the same (the only time i herd of someone saying that it changed them they were saying how they needed to start doing better in there life and stuff of that nature)
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Oisterboy
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Post by Oisterboy »

Like I said...as a youth, I was really into exploring my mind.

I have never heard of any of my friends who tried mescaline have a bad experience.

The others (mushrooms in particular) seem to be the ones that can really bring out the craziness in you. I only did them a few times back in the day, and its not something I care to do again. The entire time I felt like I was on the edge of sanity.

Mescaline was much more friendly. I don't really plan on ever doing it again, but not because it wasn't fun. I wasn't afraid of losing my grip the whole time...I was just cool with riding it out.

IDK though. Now that I'm a little older, I'm not so interested in that stuff any more (which is odd...because most of my peers are just discovering these things NOW haha...I guess I was just an early bloomer in that department.)
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hoven5th
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Post by hoven5th »

Oisterboy wrote:I guess I was just an early bloomer in that department.)
I was quite the early bloomer, too. And now that I have two young kids I have to be content with the occasional beer. The irony is that now that I've stopped doing those things I realize that there's nothing wrong with it, and I should have been defending my behavior and not ashamed of it. :roll: Oh well.
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