so called Mamm sp. ?

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DaveW
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by DaveW »

I still think it is either a Pygmaeocereus (rowlyanus?) or the plant that was mistakenly put in Pygmaeocereus (by Backeberg I think?) he called Pygmaeocereus densiaculeatus and was later renamed Haageocereus lanugispinus.

http://cactuscollection.org/Cacti/P/Pyg ... anus_2.htm

https://www.cact.cz/noviny/2015/07/Haag ... spinus.htm

https://www.cactuseros.com/Especie/1354 ... pinus.html

The problem with Pygmaeocereus is you find different looking plants under the same name and it is often difficult to sort out what the original author intended by that name, particularly as most spine variants now simply get lumped under a couple of names in most classifications.
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by Atozbotanicals »

It is in no way a Pygmaeocereus. Search Mamm. elongata monstrose and you will surely find that this is it. THe picture sent with it that was said to be the closest to it that was found was yes I believe a Pygmaeocereus however the several pictures of the specimen itself is Gold nugget. It appears to have ribs however it’s kust cylindrical and still has proper areoles associated with Mammillaria.
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by Atozbotanicals »

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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by DaveW »

You don't usually call a plant "Gold Nugget" if it has white spines though, although I agree there seems to be a strange mixture of spine colours under this name on the web. The plant you list obviously has a slight yellowish or gold cast. It is not a monstrose since it is offsetting perfectly normally, it is presumably originally a sport like M. gracilis 'Arizona Snowcap' if a Mammillaria as you suggest.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/b6/83 ... a4f824.jpg

Anyway flowers should sort it out since it should be large enough to flower and you can hardly mistake a Mammillaria flower for a Pygmaeocereus one. Has your plant flowered?

Pygmaeocereus names are horribly mixed up. You get the same plant under different names and different plants under the same name and from brownish to whitish spines. See:-

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Pygma ... 6051953568

For Pygmaeocereus see also:-

http://forum.bcss.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=155574
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by Atozbotanicals »

No, gold nugget is just a cultivar of M. elongata monstrose and this is it. It is stated before by another user that it is gold nugget also. Compare the pictures. It is monstrose. Monstrose isn’t defined by offset. There are virtually endless types of monstrose to a given species as monstrose is to describe abnormal typically generational growth mutation. The monstrose here is the supination if you’d look closely and at the areoles. The growth habit itself is also not typically of M. elongata. This one will likely not flower anyways as these are typically mutated early and cannot develop properly sexually.
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by Atozbotanicals »

The spines aren’t completely white. I have a specimen myself and I can tell you it is 100% the same. Not snow cap at all either though I thought my specimen was that at first. The spination is too uniform for snow cap and the growth habit is completely different. The spines are way more robust and distinct on snow cap as well, absent in M. e. Monstrose.
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by Atozbotanicals »

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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by DaveW »

Interesting that 'Gold Nugget' it is from a monstrose plant as you say, but I would regard it as more a reversion or sport than a monstrose, as I understand the term to mean a plant that offsets abnormally and to me those plants are not offsetting different to elongata. Mammillaria gracilis 'Arizona Snowcap' would be a monstrose under your definition of monstrosity whereas I would call it a sport.
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by Atozbotanicals »

Well it isn’t my definition, however Snowcap is a cultivar, yes. There is Mammillaria elongata monstrose which is pretty normal looking considering it’s monsrosity however there are a number of different cultivars with slightly different spination. This, aligns with the original pictures as the Gold Nugget cultivar of M.e. Monstrose. In any case. It is still formally classified as Mammillaria elongata f. monstrose whether some call it a sport or not as monstrose is a wider definition and makes more taxonomic sense when considering cultivars.
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by Atozbotanicals »

This is Mammillaria elongata f. monstrose cv. “Gold Nugget”
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by Atozbotanicals »

Also, though you said you’d call AZ snow cap more of a sport, it’s already of a subsp. of M. vetula proved by phylogenetic analysis. AZSC is a white spined cultivar of Mammillaria vetula subsp. gracilis. The spination is identical to the original subspecies but the color is the only major visual difference.
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by C And D »

It's definitely M. elongata monstrose "Gold Nugget"

We sell them, I got my original from Corona Cactus with that name, and the Monstrose book also lists it.
The spines are golden.
Sometimes it grows small monstrose carbuncle offshoots.
Last edited by C And D on Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by Atozbotanicals »

I knew that was it! I’ve only been collecting Cacti since early 2017 and in botany since 2016 though I have an M. elongata f. monstrose ‘Gold Nugget’ and I knew it was this as soon as I saw the pictures.
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by C And D »

There is a thread about them here
http://www.cactiguide.com/forum/viewtop ... se#p257254

My photos from it
IMG_1934.jpg
IMG_1934.jpg (57.66 KiB) Viewed 601 times
Monstrose carbuncle close up
IMG_1937.jpg
IMG_1937.jpg (89.09 KiB) Viewed 601 times
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Re: so called Mamm sp. ?

Post by DaveW »

I apologise then Atoz, that certainly does have some monstrose growths on it. The original picture seemed to be a white spined plant without the yellow tinge and with normal offsetting. I wonder if all the "normal" stems do produce monstrose growths eventually, or if they are simply reversions and continue to produce normal growth and offsetting? I don't think we have Mamm. 'Gold Nugget' in the UK yet.

The red growth is reminiscent of Mammillaria 'Fred'.

http://www.cactus-art.biz/schede/MAMMIL ... a_fred.htm
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