Thought provoking Opuntia articles

[BobbyZ]

Hey all: I spent my labor day weekend attempting to understand two excellent articles by Florida Museum of Nartural History scientist Lucas C. Majure:

Phylogeny of Opuntia s.s. (Cactaceae): Clade deliniation, geographic origins and reticulate disallowed - see forum rules Am. J. Botany 99(5):847-864 2012

Cytography of thr Humifusa clade of Opuntia s.s. correlations with pleistocene refugia and morphological traits in a polypoid complex Cytogenetics 6(1) 53-72 2012

Hey I retired from research but this is thought provoking, I need to read over and over to fully appreciate. The dendrograms and evolutionary maps are of interest with Brasil as the epicenter of Opuntia disallowed - see forum rules. Can you imagine cactus seeds being spread by Mammoths? I downloaded for free from Goggle scholar

Bobby Z

[BobbyZ]

I guess I should have posted under books and references, anyway I hope of of you download and read it would be great for discussion.

[coldcactusmontreal]

Where did you find these? I want to know more about polypoids.

[BobbyZ]

Subscribe to Goggle scholar I search there all the time, however not all Journal articles are free. American Journal of Botany articles can be downloaded free. Since I am retired I am restricted in getting downloads. Hey most Journals wont even let me download my own publications. One inconvenience about leaving government/academic life.

[DaveW]

For those of us that don't know what polyploids are:-

http://www.macroevolution.net/polyploid ... ihiDJ1wabM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www3.botany.ubc.ca/rieseberglab/ ... March8.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.amjbot.org/content/94/8/1360.full" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You may find these articles of interest too:-

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/11 ... l-refugia/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.fcla.edu/FlaEnt/fe84p474.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.desertfishes.org/cuatroc/lit ... cti_IV.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is some debate going on as to whether differences in ploidy should be recognised as different species or varieties, particularly when to the human eye the plants look identical and only "chemists" can distinguish between them in the laboratory. The on-going battle of the conventional morphologists fighting the "chemists"

You can explain it all this to me later!

[BobbyZ]

Dave: Thanks for additional citations. I realy appreciate the powerpoint preseantation on ploidy. Feels like in the lecture room, but no time for questions. The redorbit was a synopsis of Lucas's work nice lay summary. I like when mobo guys are well versed in ethnobotany and attempt to describe scenarios of disallowed - see forum rules. Hey classical botany will fade into genetic analysis, however the colector can appreciate phenotypic diversity It would be nice to have a Journal club for us who don't belong to societies to discuss and critique these challenging theories. Bobby Z

[CactusFanDan]

The first article is a good one. Fascinating to think that Opuntia s.s. spread from South America to North America over such a long distance. I skimmed through the other one and it seemed pretty cool as well. I just wish I was more interested in Opuntia s.s.

[BarryRice]

Stepping back a bit, do any of you guys have a good online reference or treatment of the disallowed - see forum rules of the Cactaceae? I'm curious as to current thought of what genera are thought to have been derived by which evolutionarily ancestral genera.

[BobbyZ]

Barry: I thought I typed in the whole citation and disallowed - see forum rules popped into the citation??? I didn't think there would be that censorship on retculate disallowed - see forum rules.

[BarryRice]

Hey BobbyZ

Extraordinarily, I believe this forum has a prohibition on discussing or even mentioning science having descended from the efforts of our friends Wallace & Darwin. Perhaps you can pm me any references directly, thus avoiding offending the powers that be. However, what I'm interested is not so much the cladistics of one single group, like the opuntiads, as perhaps a synthesis treating the biogeography and evo-lutionary relationships in the entire family. For examples, how are Echinopsis and the tall columnars like saguaro and cardon related? Are Ferocactus and Echinocactus related, or is this a case of convergent-you-know-what? Etc., etc., etc.

Sounds like we might have a cabal of botanists here!

[DaveW]

It's the "E-Word" in the links themselves the board does not like. Links on the subject without it post OK.

There are loads of the articles you want on the Web if you just Google "E-------- of the Cactaceae" or "Phylogeny of the Cactaceae", or any of those using "Cacti" instead of "Cactaceae".

[BobbyZ]

My imterest in cati genetics sprung up reading the R.S. Wallace article in the Park Nobel book Cactus biology and uses. I have been reading since, someday I will find the knowledge I seek. I am a novice cactophile who gets many things wrong, but I don't give up. I joined this site because I felt it was more than discssing pretty pictures.

[Saxicola]

I mentioned it in BobbyZ's other thread, but check out the bottom section of this page and it will explain a lot: http://cactiguide.com/aboutme/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'd love to join in on scientific discussions but will not play games trying to avoid the forum ban on that one subject. So a private discussion would be fine on any subject or if it is a topic that doesn't necessarily or inherently invoke that taboo topic then I'd join in here. Things like phylogenies and new classifications of plants are so fundamentally tied into the banned discussion that I just avoid them here even though that is my particular specialty.

Just as a disclaimer, while I personally disagree with the ban, I fully support Daiv's right to run his forum any way he wants.

[BobbyZ]

I appreciate the feedback I have been recieving, and I appreciate the service that DAIV has provided for us all. Perhaps as Saxicola stated it may be difficult to have modern biological disscussions on this forum. I will converse with my sister-in-law on website development where we can actually have the initiator place a powerpoint presentation and have real-time discussion, almost an on-line classroom on advances in cactology. I had a dream, and some dreams precipitate into reality for a continuing education in my new obsession. Any feedback will be appreciated.

[A. Dean Stock]

The work by Lucas Majure is very good and gives us a much better take on cladistic relationships among Opuntia species and clades. I'm trying to do similar cytogenetic systematic work with the O. polyacantha complex in the west. I hope to present some of the results on this forum but likely will just indicate the publication in this section with no discussion. I guess I should review the rules again. Daiv has done a great job on this forum and I respect the guidelines he has established.
Dean