NAPA #8822 cementing

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Cacidy
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 5:05 pm
Location: Sacramento, (Zone 9b)

NAPA #8822 cementing

Post by Cacidy »

I've been reading the forums about diatomaceous earth, NAPA floor dry #8822. I picked up a bag a tried a mix of 1/3 NAPA, 1/3 pumice, 1/6 red lava, 1/6 vermiblend (a hydro store 'soil additive' consiting of compost, earthwormcastings, humus, and kelp). I washed the NAPA extremely well, putting it over two different sizes of window screen and running jet hose water over it for 30 minutes while shaking the screens and agitating it with my hands. I did the same for the pumice and lava until the water ran clear.

No matter how much I wash the NAPA, there still seems to be cloudy water and white dust after it drys. It seems the more I wash it the more it produces.

I potted a few plants in this moist mix and the next day the mix is very dry and I can feel a vibrating type of rocking in the pot as I pick it up. Like the soil is cemented and the plant is rocking in the voids. I did push the mix into the roots with medium finger pressure as I do with other soils, but this feels very different from other pots. The moist soil does not compact when I push down on it.

So I tested some other pots with the soil (no plant), let it dry then try to take out the soil and sure enough it has caked into a blocky, semi-hard cement that I can crumble with a little effort. It isn't rock hard solid, but more hard and less loose than most other soils I've worked with from nursery plants. I believe the fine DE dust is filling the voids and cementing.

I tried the mix without the vermiblend and I got the same effect. I am pretty sure it is the diatomaceous earth that is causing it to harden. I am not even sure if it a problem I should be worried about. But when I watered a test 3 inch pot, it took about of gallon of water to make it run clearish. If I agitated the pot more sediment would kick up and it would run cloudy again.

I included some pictures of the wet and dry soil next to each other. Also notice the dry, pasty stuff caked to the bin holding up some pieces of the mix. There is white dust where I handled the pots and white dust on the screen after crazy amounts of washing, I also have the same white dust on my larger screen size.

Any thoughts or experience with this problem? Any advice on creating a viable mineral mix is greatly appreciated :D
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tudedude
Posts: 394
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 6:18 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: NAPA #8822 cementing

Post by tudedude »

I would just discard the NAPA, seems like it's not doing good things. Your mix without it is good enough as it is.
DaveW
Posts: 7376
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:36 pm
Location: Nottingham, England/UK

Re: NAPA #8822 cementing

Post by DaveW »

I don't know about NAPA, but maybe you have the wrong type? I believe these things are intended for soaking up oil on garage floors, so one or two different substances may serve that use, but not all may be good for mixing in cactus soil. You say it turns into cement, we tend to use cat litter over here which is a group of similar substances from shredded paper through to baked clay granules therefore you need to get the correct type. Whilst they are all OK for drying up cats mess, they are not all any use for cactus soil.

One type of cat litter is rather like Fullers Earth and disintegrates when wet and sets rather like cement (as with your NAPA). Try some of your NAPA in water and if it disintegrates and sets it is the wrong type, you need one that retains it's granular texture even when wet.

The one we go for in cat litter is like baked red clay granule's that retains it's shape. No doubt somebody will tell you if you have the right brand of NAPA for your purpose, but here's the original Bonsai site we originally pinched the idea for cactus soil from. They give the types to buy from around the world since similar substances are sold under different names in other countries and you need to get the correct one, or as you say it does set like concrete.

http://bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatlitter.htm

A quote from the link for America below:-

"Bryan Russ has been practicing bonsai for 3 years now and says he has tried many different types of American-brand cat litter's with no luck. However, Bryan says after a lot of research into diatomaceous earth "it lead me to contact a mineral mine in Nevada and I found out that NAPA auto parts sells their freshwater diatomaceous earth as an oil absorber.

It is 100% Diatomaceous earth and is sold under the NAPA store brand name and comes in a 25 lb bags. it is around 6$ per bag and works awesome!! Make sure to get the 25 lb bag and double check the back of the bag and make sure it says diatomaceous earth in the small print.

http://bonsai4me.com/Basics/Basicscatli ... page3.html

Of course if firms are selling these products for either soaking up oil, or for cats, they may often may change without warning to another substance that is equally suitable for those uses, but not for cactus soils, therefore you often have to keep up with the latest packaging. The cat litter we use has had it's packaging changed a few times over the years and caught out the unwary. The Bonsai site is good for keeping up to date on which packs to buy.
Cacidy
Posts: 25
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 5:05 pm
Location: Sacramento, (Zone 9b)

Re: NAPA #8822 cementing

Post by Cacidy »

Thanks for the input guys. I have attached photos of the bag I got here in California in case other enthusiasts see this post and it may help them with creating a mix, I think it may very well be that the product was changed somehow since those earlier posts.

I will be getting a sample of EP Axis DE. The sales rep said they have been getting similar reports of dusty DE from the source in California, it is only flash baked around 700-900 degrees F and may explain the dusting. This Axis is sourced from Clark, Nevada. I will post what it looks like once I get it.
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DaveW
Posts: 7376
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:36 pm
Location: Nottingham, England/UK

Re: NAPA #8822 cementing

Post by DaveW »

Might be a good idea to contact the Bonsai site so they can warn others, since they rely on inputs from users to notify them of changes and many cactophiles use their site to warn of bag design changes etc?
AnalogDog
Posts: 70
Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:58 am
Location: Mountlake Terrace, WA

Re: NAPA #8822 cementing

Post by AnalogDog »

I use 2 mixes one is pumice and potting soil for the common plants, typically I use 60% pumice or more. The other mix is a variation of Al's Gritty Mix, 30% pumice, 30% chicken grit, 30% small wood chips for my moisture sensitive plants. I have also experimented with 100% pumice as a soil, and found it works well. Keep it simple.
raleif
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2015 3:07 am
Location: New Jersey

Re: NAPA #8822 cementing

Post by raleif »

Sorry for reviving a dead thread, but was there ever an update on the Napa 8822 cementing problem?

I was just reading the Bonsai4me article, happened upon this thread to see what the cactiguide people thought. If Napa is out, does anyone know if there is a different diatomaceous earth product available in the US?
DaveW
Posts: 7376
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:36 pm
Location: Nottingham, England/UK

Re: NAPA #8822 cementing

Post by DaveW »

Sorry your troubles are continuing. Problem with us using these things is they are not sold for plants but for the purpose intended. Meaning as long as it soaks up oil from garage floors it is OK for what they are selling them for. That means they may often change what goes into the product for a substitute which is just as good for oil absorption, but no good for growing plants in. In Britain one of the supermarkets we get our cat litter from sells three versions, one is shredded paper, another is more like Fullers Earth that cements and probably equals your Napa and the third is the right one which is red clay like granules that retain their shape and do not break down and though all are suitable as cat litter, not all for plants..

Maybe somebody in your region can come up with a product that fits your requirement if nothing is mentioned on the Bonsai site, though that is usually fairly up to date.

See also:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=galvJ2LZxcA

https://www.reddit.com/r/succulents/com ... store_and/

https://forum.bonsaimirai.com/t/the-gre ... thread/402
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