advice on cintia and ortegocactus

[cefalophone]

So recently my two cintia's aren't looking so good. I am trying to help them back to health but in case I loose them I recently purchased a new one from corona cactus. I also picked up an ortegocactus because why not haha. So I am looking for any tips and tricks to ensure my cintia stays healthy and happy and just some general advice on keeping my ortegocactus the same. I thought I some what had things down with the cintia but clearly I could be doing things better. I don't have a lot of experience with ortegocactus. It has been years since I've grown one. I lost mine years back to either snail or slugs.

[iann]

They couldn't be more different but do have a number of features in common. Slow growing, need lots of light, don't over-fertilise, don't over-pot, watch out for mites. Both are mountain plants and potentially could give trouble in summer. I've seen both described as rot-prone but haven't experienced it (gritty soil, small pots) but maybe more of a problem in hot climates. I grow mine on the (lower) top shelf in a greenhouse so lots of sun and heat (on some days), but nights are still fairly cool. I did once lose most of a pot of seedlings, but I did water right after repotting so I can't really complain.

Ortegocactus is a limestone endemic. I grow with limestone in the soil, but I don't know if it is strictly necessary. Don't use limestone with Cintia! Cintia flowers in spring, maybe two or three times, doesn't do much in summer (although I had a flower this week). Ortegocactus flowers erratically right through summer. Both are very frost-hardy and grow well when nights are cold, might grow for you in winter.

[cefalophone]

Thanks again iann. I will be growing them in 2" pots on my south facing windowsill when they arrive to adjust them to my climate. I was thinking of going with 70% pumice 30% soil. Does that sound like a good mix for them?

I read an article in the xerophilia December 2013 issue that ortegocactus does not require limestone or grow in it in its native range based on the authors research. But he did not do an extensive study on the soil and only had small samples from each location he visited. So maybelimestone isn't necessary?

[DaveW]

I de-grafted my multi-headed Cintia, but it has taken a couple of years to establish because of course they are tuberous rooted plants so will not make much above ground growth until the tuberous root is formed.

http://www.cactus-art.biz/schede/CINTIA ... knizei.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not had much experience with Ortegocactus, but just got a small one in bad shape from a friend who died I am trying to pull round.

http://www.cactus-art.biz/schede/ORTEGO ... ugalli.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes it's often hard to decide if plants require the type of soil they grow in or are simply growing on it because they can due to competition from more vigorous plants in the better surrounding soil. The limestone plants question is often debated. Marlon Machado, a botanist maintained that plants in habitat growing on limestone are watered with acid rainwater and only grow whilst the water remains acid or neutral and stop growing again when the base rock turns it alkaline, therefore grew on limestone because they could, not because they needed it or it was optimum for their growth.

You also read articles that claim limestone actually retards growth and keeps the plants looking typical, whereas limestone inhabiting plants grown without such growth inhibitors in acid composts grow larger but more bloated and out of character. I don't think many of us have enough of these plants to try both methods for a period of years to compare. Also in the end it depends if you prefer plants looking as they do in habitat, or larger untypical bloated plants that will probably win prizes in most cactus competitions? As the grower it's your choice.

[adetheproducer]

I don't know if limestone particularly inhibits ortegocactus, I got one of there several weeks ago and potted in a small glassed ceramic pot with pure mineral soil with plenty of limestone (my own mexican cacti pure stone mix) and it has grown very well so far, 4 new tubercles so far and got a bit chunkier too just rain water and sunshine. I think it will need to come in the house over winter though apparently they do not like damp air which is unavoidable in the UK winter.

[iann]

Some plants *require* limestone (or at least alkaline soil conditions), some *tolerate* it (but will grow well without it), and some don't tolerate it. There is no argument about that. Quite which cacti fall into which category is the argument. Some cacti are only found on limestone substrates and I tend to grow those with limestone. Others grow on a wide range of substrates, including limestone, and I tend to grow those in my standard mix. Others are confusing: Ariocarpus and some other "limestone" cacti grow well without it (too well?) but have a nasty habit of rotting in acidic soils, or maybe that's just organic soils. There is also the question of gypsum vs limestone, although it doesn't apply to your plants.

[cefalophone]

I like to keep my cacti in as natural looking a state as possible. This is why I'm a bit confused about limestone for the ortegocactus after reading the xerophilia article.

"The story continues when I arrived home and handed the samples to my friend Dr. Csajbók József for analysis. He intermediated the rocks to be analyzed in the laboratory at the University of Debrecen, one of the top Hungarian Universities becoming increasingly popular with international students. Conclusion - antigoritic serpentine.
From the literature we learn that antigoritic serpentine is a volcanic rock that formed at great depth by crystallization of silicates under pressure and high temperatures after volcanic activity. Although it usually contains various impurities such as Fe, Ca or others, in the samples collected from Cerro Cantaro there was no calcium carbonate, and also no organic compounds.
And here comes the big novelty - almost everyone who wrote about Ortegocactus macdougalii has pointed out that the plant grows on limestone, and therefore in cultivation the soil needs to be limestone rich as well. We must recognize that this statement - after having analyzed soil samples from the habitat – cannot be really confirmed."

The above is from the article title "Myths and truths about Ortegocactus macdougalii" by Torth Norbert

Everywhere else i have found folks stating that ortegocactus does indeed grow on limestone. I am not familiar with the geography of their natural range at all though. But based on the article I am thinking a pure mineral mix would be best.

Thanks for all the help and interesting discussion.

[adetheproducer]

Sound like a plan, definitely worth keeping to pure mineral you can always fertilize or add organic if needs be. With the limestone I agree, if in doubt leave it out, they do not need it to grow and its presence is just a horticultural choice rather than a necessity. Good luck with your growing and post some pictures of your results.

[BarryRice]

I grow my Ortegocactus in pumice & crushed granite, fertilizing with water at pH=5.3. No limestone. The plants do great, flower, enlarge, and don't look like the blimps that make Iann frothy at the mouth.

[DaveW]

I suppose it's a case of how good botanists are at identifying rocks if no geologist is available. Also do all Ortegocactus populations grow on the same rock type?

[iann]

I suppose it's a case of how good botanists are at identifying rocks if no geologist is available. Also do all Ortegocactus populations grow on the same rock type?

Yes, they do. Fascinating habitat, just one hill. This link shows a typical location, but it also grows on loose scree:
http://forum.cactus-co.com/viewtopic.php?p=39446" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[DaveW]

The Xerophilia article Cefalopone refers to says:-

"Ortegocactus is spread across a barren, rocky, country side. The distribution in these areas is far from being uniform. The two observed populations revealed quite a big difference in the density of plants. While in the first population there were just small numbers of individuals scattered in the area, leaving large gaps between them, in the second population the density was so great that I had to be careful not to trample on small plants."

"I have been intrigued by the rock type these plants were growing on. The first specimens we found in crevices of rocks of different shades of dark grey. Although I cannot consider myself not even close an expert in petrography, examining more closely these rocks, it seemed as if it would not be calcareous rocks. Of course I knew there is no specific colour in limestone rocks, which can have different colours depending on the minerals content. The grey colour may be given by high clay content or by other contaminants. For this reason I became cautious in expressing a firm opinion in regards to the composition of the rock, but this kept bothering me. So, I looked for several smaller pieces of rock to submit them for further examination by specialists, because I did not suspect that the next Ortegocactus location we found there were huge amounts of rubble from the same rock lying around, just enough to fill few monster trucks. In the following location, no more than 4-5 km from the first location in which we found our plant, we came across the same type of rock, and again this time mostly as rubble. I collected some samples from here as well. One thing caught my attention regarding this rock: the larger areas were covered with patchy green-brown spots, which could indicate the presence of primitive micro-organisms or exudation of inorganic salts.

Cefalophone's previous quote on the rocks analysis carries on from there.

Again to quote Torth Norbert:-

"And here comes the big novelty - almost everyone who wrote about Ortegocactus macdougalii has pointed out that the plant grows on limestone, and therefore in cultivation the soil needs to be limestone rich as well. We must recognize that this statement - after having analysed soil samples from the habitat – cannot be really confirmed. In any case, as a result of this more than unexpected find, I repotted all my Ortegocactus macdougalii specimens (the ones grown on own roots) in a mainly mineral soil mixture composed primarily of volcanic rock rubble, zeolite and rhyolite tuff. And.... see the miracle! My plants, who once suffered visibly in calcareous soil, seemed to revive in the first year after being repotted, only to thrive during the second year like never before! In spring all plants were covered in yellow flowers, one after another."

http://xerophilia.ro/wp-content/uploads ... r-7-hq.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ian's link shows Ortegocactus growing in a rather different rock type to the other limestone inhabiting species also shown.

[iann]

Yes, its getting to be quite a popular trick. Repot a cactus, watch it grow. Exclaim that you have found the holy grail. Doesn't really matter what you're repotting from or too. Just human nature, I guess, to ignore the obvious and claim credit for a massive discovery. Then in 5 years the pant is dead Probably doesn't apply to Ortegocactus. I haven't grown it without limestone (except as seedlings), but I suspect it isn't the pickiest species. Some people claim limestone is essential (for some cacti), some claim it is poison. Both camps are probably wrong Both camps also have a nasty habit of setting up strawmen and making unsupported claims. Read it all with caution, especially since this sort of thing is so pathetically simple to test with a couple of plants (10 might be better, but you're not going for a Nobel prize).

What Ortegocactus is is tough. I suspect if you don't grow it in "harsh" conditions of intense sun and temperature variations that it won't do well (or perhaps too well before it rots). I've put seedlings in full sun at about 3 months old and they've thrived.

The discolourations described on the rocks have been explained to me by other visitors as lichen, but I can't personally vouch for that.

[cefalophone]

I remember last time I grew ortegocaxtus I had a pretty poor soil mix. I was just beggining to grow Mexican miniatures and didn't quite know what I was doing. But I was able to keep it healthy and was growing a handful of pups. I eventually lost it due to a snail attack. They devoured it all down to soil level overnight. All that was left of it were it's spines.

This time I believe and hope I have a better understanding of what I am doing haha. I expect my plants will arrive sometime this week. I don't have any de on hand or any other grit materials so for now I will be going with a pumice soil mix. I will eventually repot it to an all mineral mix when I pick up some supplies.

Would cintia benefit being in a mineral mix as well?

I'll be posting pics up when my cacti arrive.

[iann]

I remember last time I grew ortegocaxtus I had a pretty poor soil mix. I was just beggining to grow Mexican miniatures and didn't quite know what I was doing. But I was able to keep it healthy and was growing a handful of pups. I eventually lost it due to a snail attack. They devoured it all down to soil level overnight. All that was left of it were it's spines.

This time I believe and hope I have a better understanding of what I am doing haha. I expect my plants will arrive sometime this week. I don't have any de on hand or any other grit materials so for now I will be going with a pumice soil mix. I will eventually repot it to an all mineral mix when I pick up some supplies.

Would cintia benefit being in a mineral mix as well?

I'll be posting pics up when my cacti arrive.

Almost *all* desert cacti will do well in what would be considered a poor soil for most plants, low organics, open and free-draining. Very few of them need a rich organic soil and most will do very badly in such a soil. Cintia is not an exception. However, I suspect it would do quite badly in an alkaline soil. Habitat is widespread and alpine, but not on limestone. Very rocky, broken slate seems to be typical, extreme drainage. Plants without adaptations for limestone generally suffer from nutrient deficiencies on alkaline soils.