Degrafting advice?

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Zhanna
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Degrafting advice?

Post by Zhanna »

I picked up this grafted cactus (Parodia scopa?) today with hopes of degrafting it in the spring. I just don't care for the lollipop look, and I don't see any reason why it couldn't grow on its own roots.

Any advice on how to do this, and whether the scion will form roots readily?

Also - is there anything special I should do with the cactus over the winter? I keep most of my cacti dry in the winter, but this is my first grafted cactus and I don't know if it has different requirements.

Thanks very much!
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DaveW
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by DaveW »

I would not recommend cutting at the stock and scion union since it is usually lignified and hard to root, but cut the scion a little above. In your case about three quarters of an inch up the scion. This has two advantages in that usually it is easier to root the softer tissue of the scion here, plus the part left on the stock will usually produce pups that can be cut off later and propagated so are a safety measure should the top part rot, therefore you still have more plants coming along to replace it. Allow the cut surfaces to air dry for about a week before potting up.

http://www.bcss.org.uk/foruma/viewtopic ... 1&t=157266" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.cactus-art.biz/note-book/Dic ... afting.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://mycotopia.net/topic/48522-degra ... eskiopsis/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As an alternative some cut the head off leaving about three quarters to one inch of the stock, allow that to dry then bury the stock up to the graft union and allow it to root. Often after a few years the stump of the stock underground withers and the scion roots through the stock. Those who obtain Melocactus from the Continent often find on re-potting thy have been done this way and the scion has often rooted through the old stump.

With grafted plants if your plant is grafted on a tender stock, as many Continental or Japanese ones are, you need to keep the plant frost free throughout the winter even if the scion itself is winter hardy. Cultivation of grafted plants is no different otherwise, so a dry winter rest is OK.
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Zhanna
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by Zhanna »

Thank you! This is very helpful. I had read about cutting the stock to a shorter length and burying it, but I wasn't sure what would happen if it died. It's encouraging to know that the scion can root through this. However, I really like the idea of cutting above the join and possibly getting some pups. (Or maybe this is an excuse to buy the remaining one from the store and try both methods! :D )

After making the cut, do you recommend dusting with sulfur or rooting powder, or just leaving it to dry exposed to the air?
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Zhanna wrote:After making the cut, do you recommend dusting with sulfur or rooting powder, or just leaving it to dry exposed to the air?
Not sure about rooting powder, but sulfur powder absolutely! The last thing you'll want is mold invading freshly-exposed tissue before it has a chance to callous over.
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
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DaveW
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by DaveW »

You can use powdered charcoal too, but sulphur is usually more easily available. You could use rooting powder on the scion you want to root, but it is not usually necessary for cacti since rooting hormones are more use for hardwood cuttings rather than soft textured cuttings like cacti. Really with cacti you simply want the powder chosen to quickly dry the cut surface, and probably the same for Other Succulents that "bleed" like Euphorbias when cut.

See:-

http://www.cactiguide.com/forum/viewtop ... 21&t=10178" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is said you can use honey as a fungicide for rooting plants but I have never tried it. Organic non pasteurised honey is said to be best since presumably pasteurisation kills some of it's effects?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLnpsOwsATQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3609166/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A quote from the above link:-

"The antimicrobial activity in most honeys is due to the enzymatic production of hydrogen peroxide"

Maybe dipping the cut surface in hydrogen peroxide would serve the same purpose then?
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by Steve Johnson »

DaveW wrote:Maybe dipping the cut surface in hydrogen peroxide would serve the same purpose then?
The benefit of using peroxide in that application is quite temporary, while sulfur powder will stay on the job for as long as it takes to dry out and callous the exposed surface.

Zhanna, peroxide does come in handy whenever you have to clean off roots for transplanting. The next time you'll need to repot a rooted cactus let me know, and I'll give you the steps on the peroxide treatment I've been following for quite awhile. Works great!
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Saxicola
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by Saxicola »

Funny to see that grafted. I had several that I was selling on eBay on their own roots. For whatever reason they sold well at first, then the last four sat for 3 months or so. They grew about 50% in size during that time. So once that guy takes root I think you will see it grows every bit as fast as it would grafted. To me, grafting should be used on very slow growing plants or ones very prone to rot or disease, not on something that grows really well on its own.
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DaveW
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by DaveW »

Grafting is handy commercially for introducing new discoveries quickly into cultivation at a reasonable price, something we often have to thank the East Europeans for who seem skilled in this art of propagation.

To quote from John Pilbeam's Mammillaria book for Mammilaria carmenae:-

"It was not until Alfred Lau rediscovered it in 1977 that ... through seedlings (and some wizard grafting in the UK by the late Derek Desborough, who produced in one year 100 grafted plants from one of those."

Therefore do that commercially and keep topping them to produce offsets you could theoretically produce 100 plants from each of that 100 = 10,000 the next year!

Apart from plants the grafted plants will flower earlier and produce seed as long as two seedlings are used so they are not clones. Therefore within a year or so seed also is freely available. A commercial grower originally growing plants from just a few seeds could never produce easily grown plants on their own roots at that speed. That I guess will be why you soon may be able to obtain plants or seed of Aztekium valdezii or even the new Mammillaria bertholdii (which looks like a pectinate spined Ariocarpus kotschoubeyanus crossed with Mammillaria saboae!) within a reasonable time after it's discovery, since conventional propagation for plant and seed production would take a good many years longer.

http://www.cactofili.org/specie.asp?mod ... bertholdii" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Zhanna
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by Zhanna »

Steve Johnson wrote:Zhanna, peroxide does come in handy whenever you have to clean off roots for transplanting. The next time you'll need to repot a rooted cactus let me know, and I'll give you the steps on the peroxide treatment I've been following for quite awhile. Works great!
Thanks! I think I've read about your procedure in some of your posts, but when I'm ready I will let you know if I have any questions. Unfortunately, I think my repotting opportunities are pretty much at an end for this year. The season of cold and dark is coming to the northeast. :(
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by Steve Johnson »

You're welcome, Zhanna! Our temperate winters in L.A. allow me to do things that hobbyist growers in colder climates should probably avoid during the fall/winter months. While repotting during that time isn't totally out of the question, it does carry some risk -- especially for growers who are new to the hobby. March should be a good time for you, so don't forget that my door is open here whenever you're ready.

By the way -- even after my 24 years of on-and-off cactus collecting, I haven't tried degrafting one before, but I may finally take the plunge. I'm on the hunt for Discocactus horstii. Miles' To Go will have them available as grafted plants in spring, and if I can't find a horstii on its own roots from another source, I'll get one from M2G and give degrafting a shot. Since this species is supposedly the most difficult of all Discos, the challenge should be interesting.
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Zhanna
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by Zhanna »

Saxicola wrote:Funny to see that grafted. I had several that I was selling on eBay on their own roots. For whatever reason they sold well at first, then the last four sat for 3 months or so. They grew about 50% in size during that time. So once that guy takes root I think you will see it grows every bit as fast as it would grafted. To me, grafting should be used on very slow growing plants or ones very prone to rot or disease, not on something that grows really well on its own.
I was definitely surprised to see it, but I assumed it was a method used to grow it more quickly for sale. After the third visit to Home Depot and this poor forlorn cactus was still sitting there*, well, I felt bad for it and just had to take it home. I figured there would be a way to degraft it. (And as I mentioned, there was a "sibling" so I may be able to try both methods.)

* I prefer online sources or first pick of a shipment when it arrives at a big-box store, but sometimes I can't resist the plants that have been sitting there for a while, especially after seeing them there over and over. I figure if they've survived a few weeks or months in one of those places without rotting or major etiolation, they must have a pretty strong will to live, so often they come home with me. :wink: ](*,)
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Zhanna
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by Zhanna »

DaveW wrote:Grafting is handy commercially for introducing new discoveries quickly into cultivation at a reasonable price, something we often have to thank the East Europeans for who seem skilled in this art of propagation.
All excellent points that I hadn't considered. It's really exciting that there are still new cacti being discovered!
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Zhanna
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by Zhanna »

Steve Johnson wrote:You're welcome, Zhanna! Our temperate winters in L.A. allow me to do things that hobbyist growers in colder climates should probably avoid during the fall/winter months. While repotting during that time isn't totally out of the question, it does carry some risk -- especially for growers who are new to the hobby. March should be a good time for you, so don't forget that my door is open here whenever you're ready.
Yes, plants usually start waking up around here at some point in March. It's still cold, but the greater amount of daylight is noticeable, and I have a south-facing sunroom that lengthens the season somewhat.
Steve Johnson wrote:By the way -- even after my 24 years of on-and-off cactus collecting, I haven't tried degrafting one before, but I may finally take the plunge. I'm on the hunt for Discocactus horstii. Miles' To Go will have them available as grafted plants in spring, and if I can't find a horstii on its own roots from another source, I'll get one from M2G and give degrafting a shot. Since this species is supposedly the most difficult of all Discos, the challenge should be interesting.
Good luck! It should be fun and no matter what, as I always say, a learning experience. I've received really nice plants from Miles. (Nothing that exotic yet, though.)
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oldcat61
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by oldcat61 »

Zhanna - you have a growing advantage! You can use the magic ingredient in your soil mixture: finely ground culm from all the mine fires. Nice & porous; acid to boot. Just teasing you. I'm from Wilkes-Barre & wonder if we have found a use for all the piles of slag. To non-coalcrackers, I apologize for hijacking the thread for a moment of local humor. Sue
DaveW
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Re: Degrafting advice?

Post by DaveW »

"wonder if we have found a use for all the piles of slag"

Basic slag was used as a fertiliser in the UK and elsewhere for decades:-

http://www.aces.edu/timelyinfo/Ag%20Soi ... icslag.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also used in concrete as well as fly ash from power stations:-

"Slag cement, or ground granulated blast-furnace slag (GGBFS), has been used in concrete projects in the United States for over a century. Earlier usage of slag cement in Europe and elsewhere demonstrates that long-term concrete performance is enhanced in many ways. Based on these early experiences, modern designers have found that these improved durability characteristics help further reduce life-cycle costs, lower maintenance costs and makes concrete more sustainable."
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