Ariocarpus

Discuss repotting, soil, lighting, fertilizing, watering, etc. in this category.
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adetheproducer
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Ariocarpus

Post by adetheproducer »

I have a few ariocarpus, two fissuratus, a retusus and kotschoubeyanus elephantidens with a confusus on its way. The ones I already have are healthy they clearly use the water they are given and my smaller fissuratus does appear to be growing now autum is creeping in.

I would like to know what kind of growth rate I can expect from the fissuratus plants, is it ambitious to expect a new tubercle a year?

The kotschoubeyanus has noticable growth and I believe the retusus is fairly quick growing too so not to worried about those.

I grown in the UK, elevation aproximatly 800m above sea level with roughly 10 to 12 hours of direct sun in the height of summer reducing to about 6-8 hours in winter. They are in a green house so heat is not an issue regularly reaching 35 + c in summer day time.

Any information would be very much welcome especially from other UK ario growers.

Thanks everyone.
And as the walls come down and as I look in your eyes
My fear begins to fade recalling all of the times
I have died and will die.
It's all right.
I dont mind
I dont mind.
I DONT MIND
DaveW
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Re: Ariocarpus

Post by DaveW »

One here from the UK Ade:-

http://birmingham.bcss.org.uk/?p=170" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Living Rocks" is a good source of information on cultivation for UK collectors:-

http://www.living-rocks.com/cultivation.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I believe David Quai keeps his Ariocarpus seedlings in a warm humid atmosphere and they grow pretty quickly, therefore habitat type conditions are not always optimum growth conditions.
Onzuka
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Re: Ariocarpus

Post by Onzuka »

I was going to point you to the living rocks of Mexico website but DaveW beat me to it by a few hours. Anyway, here is the link to the main index page, there is lots of reading there.

http://www.living-rocks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Steve
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adetheproducer
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Re: Ariocarpus

Post by adetheproducer »

Yeah I am quite familiar with the living rock website, I think I head read it all several times. Cheers guys. And thank for the bcss link I'll give that a look shortly.
And as the walls come down and as I look in your eyes
My fear begins to fade recalling all of the times
I have died and will die.
It's all right.
I dont mind
I dont mind.
I DONT MIND
iann
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Re: Ariocarpus

Post by iann »

One tubercle a year for sure. Maybe more. They grow quite quickly if you can keep them constantly warm by night and hot by day, not easy in England. Try growing smaller ones in a propagator. Natural summer conditions are just too cool, interspersed with a few ridiculously hot days that just burn the plants.
--ian
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adetheproducer
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Re: Ariocarpus

Post by adetheproducer »

Surprisingly we get pretty good spring/summer/early autumn sun. Being quite high up the moutain there is no shadows until 6pm and my garden is and excellent sun trap so good heat really is not an issue. But, winters are cold and damp and dark. Last year I brought my first ariocarpus fissuratus indoors for the coldest part of the year. It deffinately has noticeably grown this year. It has a new tubercle almost pushed out completely, all the other tubercles have got chunkier and the overall girth of it has increased too. I put it in a pure mineral soil (just crushed rocks, took hours to make with my lump hammer but always perfect consistency) earlier in the year, thats made a positive difference also lets me water profusely which they seem to like a lot when its been a hot day.

I and not worried about them being slow growers and am aiming for the au-naturale look rather than the bloated look many growers seem to acheive. That brings me around to fertilizers. Not knocking they're use but had a bad early experience of use and split open a l.williamsii. I have read a lot about fertilisers and on the flip side read about the mineral extracting properties of their symbiotic bacteria so providing the right rock types in the soil mix can eliminate the need for fertilizers(one particularly good example is the xerophylia stone eaters issue). In my opinion there is a lot of truth in it and quite early on decided to start thinking of them as more like moss or even lychen. I put all my mexican cacti in this custom soil mix and am having great results, strong growth and lots of flowers. Any way I have been a bit fearful of using fertilizers and dont want to risk my most prized plants.
And as the walls come down and as I look in your eyes
My fear begins to fade recalling all of the times
I have died and will die.
It's all right.
I dont mind
I dont mind.
I DONT MIND
DaveW
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Re: Ariocarpus

Post by DaveW »

You are back to the question Ade of whether limestone promotes or retards their growth? The natural growth lobby says limestone in the mix actually slows growth keeping them natural looking and compact not bloated. I think Ian pointed out though that limestone only releases its alkalinity slowly if I remember him correctly?

Marlon Machado, the Brazilian botanist, stated though Ariocarpus live on alkaline rocks they only grow when they get acid rain and stop as soon as the rocks neutralise it. Therefore there seems to be a bit of truth in both camps that limestone acts as a growth retardant keeping them natural looking, but they prefer either acidified or rain water!

Fertilisers for plants in pots is also the subject of much debate. If the plants are re-potted regularly they don't need fertilisers with most normal potting soils. If you leave them in the pots for longer however unlike plants in open ground they will exhaust the soil in the pot and if you are a person who grows in relatively inert potting ingredients you may have to use dilute fertiliser on a regular basis. However I sometimes wonder just how inert pumice and cat litter types of ingredients are. After all volcanic soils are some of the richest soils there are and Brachycereus nesioticus grows quite happily on virtually virgin volcanic rock in the Galapagos, plus cat litter is only a form of baked soil (clay) anyway, therefore I wonder what minerals are left in it the plant can extract?

I remember seeing a large very healthy Mammillaria growing in one corner of a greenhouse bed in Roy Mottrams Whitestone nursery in the UK in what he used to call "Whitestone One Eleven", which was simply coarse sand, grit and "grog", the latter is simply baked clay (similar to Seramis or Cat Litter) from the pottery industry and he told me at the time that plant had been growing in it for very many years without ever having any fertiliser, only water at all times. He even suggested the plant may be able to fix the nitrogen needed from the air, but how true that is I don't not know?

If you want to know what "Whitestone One Eleven" was see:-

http://www.bcss.org.uk/foruma/viewtopic ... one+eleven" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Robb
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Re: Ariocarpus

Post by Robb »

DaveW wrote:fix the nitrogen needed from the air, but how true that is I don't not know?
Plants that are able to fix nitrogen from air have nodules on their roots containing bacteria which extract it for them. I don't think cacti are able to fix nitrogen because we would've noticed the nodules before :D .
Buying a cactus a day will keep the madness away.
DaveW
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Re: Ariocarpus

Post by DaveW »

Yes I always understood nitrogen fixers required root nodules too, but whether associated bacteria may fix it for other plants I do not know:-

"Cyanobacterial associations.

The photosynthetic cyanobacteria often live as free-living organisms in pioneer habitats such as desert soils (see cyanobacteria) or as symbionts with lichens in other pioneer habitats. They also form symbiotic associations with other organisms such as the water fern Azolla, and cycads.The association with Azolla, where cyanobacteria (Anabaena azollae) are harboured in the leaves, has sometimes been shown to be important for nitrogen inputs in rice paddies, especially if the fern is allowed to grow and then ploughed into the soil to release nitrogen before the rice crop is sown. A symbiotic association of cyanobacteria with cycads is shown below. The first image shows a pot-grown plant. The second image shows a close-up of the soil surface in this pot. Short, club-shaped, branching roots have grown into the aerial environment. These aerial roots contain a nitrogen-fixing cyanobacterial symbiont.

In addition to these intimate and specialised symbiotic associations, there are several free-living nitrogen-fixing bacteria that grow in close association with plants. For example, Azospirillum species have been shown to fix nitrogen when growing in the root zone (rhizosphere) of tropical grasses, and even of maize plants in field conditions. Similarly, Azotobacter species can fix nitrogen in the rhizosphere of several plants. In both cases the bacteria grow at the expense of sugars and other nutrients that leak from the roots. However, these bacteria can make only a small contribution to the nitrogen nutrition of the plant, because nitrogen-fixation is an energy-expensive process, and large amounts of organic nutrients are not continuously available to microbes in the rhizosphere."


http://archive.bio.ed.ac.uk/jdeacon/mic ... trogen.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Evidently there are far more nitrogen fixing plants than we at first think:-

http://www.perennialsolutions.org/all-n ... ated-equal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It has now been found cacti have bacteria associated with them that can digest rocks, so maybe eventually associated nitrogen fixing bacteria may be found? Being slow growing low nitrogen using plants they would not need as efficient nitrogen fixation as more vigorous plants?
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adetheproducer
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Re: Ariocarpus

Post by adetheproducer »

I think there is deffinatelly some kind of nitrogen fixing process involved even if it's a more simple/complex process of extraction from dissolved nitrogen in rain water or even right from the air. They do lock in air for a long time as part of the CAM cycle, is it not strange to think that the 79% of that gas goes unused? Also after a full growth season on rock and rain water only diets I have had some epic growth and good regular flowering. It there was insufficient nitrogen there surely would be no capability to produce protiens and grow.

Any way looking around at all the available info I think the growth rate im getting is ok. I really am not botherd by slow to very slow growth, its quality over quantity as they say. The roits are strong and they all have relatively large tap roots and locked themselves into the soil mix very quickly. I might give them a little fertilizer boost when they have properlly woken up in spring but based on what I have read im happy with what I'm doing.

Cheers everyone
And as the walls come down and as I look in your eyes
My fear begins to fade recalling all of the times
I have died and will die.
It's all right.
I dont mind
I dont mind.
I DONT MIND
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