Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Discuss repotting, soil, lighting, fertilizing, watering, etc. in this category.
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BarryRice
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Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by BarryRice »

Hey Guys,

I've been asked a couple of times how I grow my plants, when I mentioned I grow them hydroponically, but I've always replied with silence. Well, this should change that.

My situation is that I am growing plants in a completely inorganic medium (4:3 pumice:crushed granite). Also, I don't want to spend too much time watering the plants each weekend. Finally, I don't want to waste water, as we are in a drought in California.

Most of the 260+ plants in my collection live in a 30% shaded box in the back yard, in plastic pots. About 25 of my plants are larger than 1 g (4 liter) pot sizes, and they live in ceramic pots, mostly in full sun.

I also have about 4 more flats of plants that either get given to visitors or sold off on eBay.

So, here are photos of my little shade house from the front, and from the side. I've got windowscreen providing shade.
Figure 1: my cactus hutch
Figure 1: my cactus hutch
01.JPG (77.22 KiB) Viewed 3409 times
Figure 2: my cactus hutch
Figure 2: my cactus hutch
02.JPG (75.86 KiB) Viewed 3409 times
In the winter, I take the shade cloth off, and the corregated plastic roof channels any rainwater away. During the month or so of frosts, I cover this with plastic sheets and put a small heater, controlled by a thermostat, in with the plants just to keep the temperatures above freezing.

Here is the majority of my larger plants
Figure 3: my big plants
Figure 3: my big plants
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And for completeness, here's my big Echinopsis terscheckii, certainly my most massive plant. (Oddly, my largest plant--a large Echinopsis peruviana, seems to have avoided all my photos here, but you can see it sneaking in, photobombing some of the other images.)
Figure 4: my most massive plant
Figure 4: my most massive plant
04.JPG (115.99 KiB) Viewed 3409 times
When I want to fiddle with my plants, I can lift up the lids to the growing area (there are two such lids), and I fix them in place with pvc rods. I have clips on the rods, so I can leave the plants unattended like this, secure that wind or whatever won't knock the rods out.
Figure 5: cactus hutch open for viewing
Figure 5: cactus hutch open for viewing
05.JPG (78.14 KiB) Viewed 3409 times
It's not the most convenient thing, but it's how I have things right now. Here are a few images of my plants in the main compartment of my growing area:
Figure 6: main chamber
Figure 6: main chamber
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Figure 7: more main chamber
Figure 7: more main chamber
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Here is the front compartment:
Figure 8: front chamber
Figure 8: front chamber
08.JPG (97.67 KiB) Viewed 3409 times
As for watering, I do this about once/week during the growing season. Now, as noted, each time I water, I use a weak fertilizer solution. I have large 30 liter buckets of water, to which I add about 280 ml of 5% acetic acid, 21 ml of All Pro 7-7-7 fertilizer, and 5 ml of Ammonium sulfate. This results in water that has a pH of about 5.20-5.35, as measured by my two-point calibrated pH meter. I mix the fertilizers according to the framework advocated by Roberts & Burleigh (2010), to produce a fertilizer fluid with 50-50-50 ppm N-P-K.

Note: I am aware that the method of Roberts & Burleigh (2010) is contentious and perhaps to a certain amount, voodoo, but I adopted this a few years ago as a starting point, and it seems to be working great. We can discuss this someplace else, perhaps, ok?

Anyway, it takes about 5 big buckets, each with 30 liters, to do my weekly watering. I have a submersible pump, which I drop into each bucket in turn, and water the plants in my shade house that way. Now here's where it gets interesting. The water immediately pours out of the bottom of the pots. I have a system of sloped panels, gutters, and a catch basin beneath the pots to reclaim all the water. You can see it in Figure #5 above, and the close up below.
Figure 9: catchment system
Figure 9: catchment system
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Notice the blue-lidded catch basin?

So what I really do as I water my plants is use my main pump to pull water from whatever bucket I am using at the time, to water my plants. Then, I use a second submerged pump in the catch basin to transfer water from the catch basin to another bucket. I reuse that water on other cacti--usually my big ones that live outside the shade house. Any water left over after I water all my plants goes to some other needy customer in the garden.

Here's a view of my little control box I made:
Figure 10: pump controller
Figure 10: pump controller
10.JPG (64.87 KiB) Viewed 3409 times
After preparing all my buckets of fertilizer water, it takes me about 50 minutes to water all my plants.

Cheers

Barry
I'll grow it as long as it doesn't have glochids. Gaudy flowers a plus.
DaveW
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by DaveW »

You seem to have got it right anyway Barry. =D>

One problem with hydroponics for those wishing to try it can be if you just use fertilisers designed for general garden use which don't provide all the trace elements the makers assume the soil itself will provide. Even if some claim they include trace elements they often rely on plants obtaining some from the soil. However hydroponic fertilisers should contain all the trace elements required having no soil to provide any missing. But to sum up basically from the link below:-

"You must also choose the fertilizer according to the plant since cacti and orchids need special fertilizer with different NPK ratio. But some fertilizers for soil culture may not be suitable for hydroponics."

http://allabouthydroponics.blogspot.com ... 9DismdOWRs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also see:-

http://www.simplyhydro.com/whatis.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A friend of mine in the UK tells me he now also does his cactus seed raising using a hydroponic pumped system.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by Steve Johnson »

Impressive setup you have there, Barry! =D> I'm glad you seem to be doing well with essentially the same practices I've been following with great success since 2012. The only difference is that I backed away from including Roberts' recommendations on adding Ammonium sulfate as a fert supplement. IMO a minor disagreement, so if it works for you, excellent! Nice to be a cactus grower in California, isn't it? :)

Dave, I think Barry is using the same fert I use. The specs on Dyna Gro All-Pro 7-7-7:
Dyna-Gro_7-7-7_specs.jpg
Dyna-Gro_7-7-7_specs.jpg (33.14 KiB) Viewed 3379 times
The Dyna Gro people have done their homework probably better than some (or most) of the other fert manufacturers out there. And precisely why I did some serious research before I selected the fert I would trust to my cacti, considering how important this is to get it right for their long-term health.
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BarryRice
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by BarryRice »

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the kind comments. :oops:

I selected the fertilizer I am using based upon two recommendations. The first was from Steve Johnson here, who perhaps sets the bar as being obsessively fastidious about cactus cultivation. :lol:

The second was from the staff of a hydroponics store here in the Sacramento area. The store obviously caters to the (as-yet-still) illegal marijuana grower community, but still they gave it high marks. Of course, Cannabis is not in the Cactaceae, but it was encouraging!

All this said, the proof is in the results--I'm getting pretty good looking plants, which grow faster than I expected, and which are not turning into the oft-maligned bloated balloons. Also, rot simply does not occur for my plants.
I'll grow it as long as it doesn't have glochids. Gaudy flowers a plus.
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by Tony »

That's a very clean and efficient setup you have there!
I like your guard as well. 8)
Forget the dog...Beware of the plants!!!

Tony
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jp29
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by jp29 »

BarryRice wrote:.......... My situation is that I am growing plants in a completely inorganic medium (4:3 pumice:crushed granite). Also, I don't want to spend too much time watering the plants each weekend. Finally, I don't want to waste water, as we are in a drought in California ...........
Hi Barry. Nice write-up. I am very interested in your (and Steve Johnson's) " inorganic medium for growing cacti" methodology. If you remember, I posted elsewhere on this Forum that a number of years ago I dabbled with growing some of my Arrojadoa's in pure pumice (in plastic pots). They grew very well and I wish I would have done more - but for some reason I can no longer remember, I dropped the venture. It might have been because I didn't take the time to investigate the feeding (fertilization) requirements - or maybe adequate fertilizers weren't available then - but whatever the reason I reverted to my "predominantly mineral" (mostly pumice with a small percentage of pine bark) media. I certainly never attained the degree of sophistication in growing cacti "hydroponically" as you (and Steve Johnson) have. Now I want to do something like that for a number of reasons, best left for later explanation so as not to cloud this present posting.

As you can imagine, Barry, in my long lifespan of growing cacti (I started with my first cactus - an Echinopsis oxygona - in 1939) I have used just about every growing media that has been concocted in the cactus growing community starting with the ubiquitous one third garden loam, one third forest leaf mold, one third sharp sand (using the then obligatory porous terra-cotta clay pots) of the pre-world war2 years. I have always had good success growing cacti (including my beloved Brazilians) and the plants I have produced over the years have been consistently healthy and robust with strong spination, bountiful flowers and good crops of fruit. That being said, good plant care and maintenance has sometimes been difficult and that is the area where I think your (and Steve's) "inorganic media/hydroponic cultivation" methodology holds so much promise (at least for me). I look forward to continued dialog and discussion on this subject.
Most of the 260+ plants in my collection live in a 30% shaded box in the back yard, in plastic pots ..........
I use a similar set-up to yours, Barry, (including the use of 30% shade cloth) but yours is much more sophisticated (and, I might add, superior) to mine. I believe Steve Johnson uses a similar set-up. In any event, I would like to also explore this further in future posts.
Last edited by jp29 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by Steve Johnson »

jp29 wrote:I believe Steve Johnson uses a similar set-up. In any event, I would like to also explore this further in future posts.
Yes indeed -- same basic lighting principle Barry applies, although in my case I've had 40% shade cloth over the collection since I got it started 3 years ago. Growing up in Glendale, CA I lost too many cacti to sun scorch in the summer, so the shade cloth has saved me from a repeat of those sad experiences. And I would certainly enjoy continuing the discussion as you suggest!
If you just want photos without all the blather, please visit my Flickr gallery.
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jp29
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by jp29 »

A pumice story that I will tie into your thread, Barry.

The first pumice I acquired locally was in the early 1980s and came from my good friend and cactus nursery owner Dan Bach here in Tucson. It was what I call "freshly mined and raw" - unscreened with all the fines present and of somewhat pale tan coloration. That is what I used during my first foray into growing cacti in straight pumice. My plants seemed to really enjoy this pumice and grew very well in it. However, Dan's pumice changed recently and he was no longer able to obtain the kind of pumice I described previously. The new pumice is refined and screened and white with mostly uniform 3/8" (approx) size particles. Great stuff to use as a component of soilless media, but not to my liking - the old pumice had a great look and feel to me - and I also used it as a top dressing in some containers. I did pot up some Discocactus placentiformis in this new pumice but I wasn't really happy growing them in it.

This past Friday I drove out to Dan's Nursery in order to once again replenish my pumice supply. When I left my house it was a typical Tucson July afternoon - fierce sunshine, about 100 deg F temperature and with some ominous clouds building up in the sky. But it is the "monsoon" season here and by the time I got to Dan's the thunder and lightning started - no sooner had I taken shovel in hand at the pumice pile than the skies let loose with a deluge and Dan, his brother, Jim, some of his workers, and me, dashed for cover. While we were waiting out the storm and engaging in casual conversation I mentioned my experience with pumice and my yearning for the early stuff. "Well, James" said Dan "what you don't know is that there is a small remnant pile of it hidden from view behind the mound of new stuff" .......... and as the rain let up he said to one of his workers "Thomas, go and fill a ten gallon container with that old pumice for James" (or words to that effect). What a good friend! I am now, as they say these days, one happy camper!

I have added a few explanatory pics below:

Image
Slightly damp (from rain) old style raw, unscreened and unsifted, pumice

Image
Dried out old style raw, unscreened and unsifted, pumice

Image
Dried out old style raw pumice screened and sifted to remove fines and dust (enlarged)

Image
Discocactus placentiformis growing in new style "uniform 3/8" particle size white pumice
Last edited by jp29 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:50 am, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by jp29 »

Steve Johnson wrote:.......... same basic lighting principle Barry applies, although in my case I've had 40% shade cloth over the collection since I got it started 3 years ago. Growing up in Glendale, CA I lost too many cacti to sun scorch in the summer, so the shade cloth has saved me from a repeat of those sad experiences ..........!
You know, Steve, I have not had that problem growing cacti under 30% shade cloth here in Tucson and our summer sun is usually much stronger and more fierce than Glendale, CA (much higher temperatures here also). I like 30% shade cloth because I believe it produces stronger and denser spination and overall "harder" growth. Maybe there are some other cultivational limiting factors at work for you?

Added edit: A great advantage of growing cacti under just shade cloth is that there is always excellent all-around air circulation thus avoiding the air stagnation that appears to contribute so much to the scorching of plants grown in conventional greenhouses.
Last edited by jp29 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:51 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by Steve Johnson »

jp29 wrote:You know, Steve, I have not had that problem growing cacti under 30% shade cloth here in Tucson and our summer sun is usually much stronger and more fierce than Glendale, CA (much higher temperatures here also). I like 30% shade cloth because I believe it produces stronger and denser spination and overall "harder" growth. Maybe there are some other cultivational limiting factors at work for you?
Well, truth be told, there's so much I didn't know about growing cacti in my younger days. Back then it never occurred to me that my plants weren't healthy enough to take the summer heat and sun they should normally thrive on. In other words -- blame the climate, not the grower. Even after a 20-year absence from the hobby, my cultivational ignorance followed me into 2011, although the decision to insist on shade cloth turned out to make sound practical sense. Maybe for reasons that are different from what I originally had in mind, so as I continue to go with the shade cloth, I'll chalk it up to a certain amount of "grower's intuition" I've developed over the last 2+ years.
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by jp29 »

Steve Johnson wrote:.......... Well, truth be told, there's so much I didn't know about growing cacti in my younger days. Back then it never occurred to me that my plants weren't healthy enough to take the summer heat and sun they should normally thrive on. In other words -- blame the climate, not the grower ..........
I understand full well, Steve - I have experienced some of that myself over the years.
Last edited by jp29 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by jp29 »

Steve (and Barry - and anyone else interested in this subject), do you sift the fines out of your pumice or use it as is?
Last edited by jp29 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by Steve Johnson »

jp29 wrote:Steve (and Barry - and anyone else interested in this subject), do you sift the fines out of your pumice or use it as is?
I've been getting my pumice from the California Cactus Center in Pasadena. Not much in the way of fines, but I do sift the dust out anyway. Here's the stuff I use:

Image

Image

By the way, I was rather intrigued by your pumice story. Will you be posting it again?
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by jp29 »

Steve Johnson wrote:I've been getting my pumice from the California Cactus Center in Pasadena. Not much in the way of fines, but I do sift the dust out anyway. Here's the stuff I use:

Image

Image
Thanks, Steve. That looks similar to the "new" pumice I have been using of late.
.......... By the way, I was rather intrigued by your pumice story. Will you be posting it again?
As I mentioned above Steve I did an edit re-write as I thought during a re-read that what I had written was too flowery and full of unnecessary detail - and besides I forgot to check out some of the information with Dan first to be sure I had got everything correct. As I get older I am becoming more and more forgetful. As they say - "There are three sure signs of growing old. The first is loss of memory - I have forgotten the other two."
Last edited by jp29 on Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hydroponic, all-mineral growing in a drought

Post by jp29 »

Following are some pics of my set-up at my home for growing my small Brazilian cacti under 30% shade cloth:

Image

Image

Image

Image

No where as sophisticated or nice as that of Barry or Steve I am afraid, but I am working at it. I intend to re-pot most (maybe all eventually) of these plants in my "old style" straight pumice soon and grow them hydroponically using the methodology we are discussing here (thanks, Barry).

Edit -See my signature block for my updated cultivation methodology
Last edited by jp29 on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:47 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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