fish emulsion fertilitzer?

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fanaticactus
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fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by fanaticactus »

I was wondering if anyone has tried fish or seaweed emulsion fertilizer on cacti. An old and recognizable brand to me is Neptune's Harvest, made not far from my hometown. I know I'd want a higher phosphorus content fertilitzer, so I was considering either the purely fish emulsion at 2-4-1 or a seaweed/fish blend at 2-3-1.
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Saxicola
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by Saxicola »

That is an old fashioned fertilizer that not many people use today (at least serious growers) because the bang for the buck is quite low and it can make things smell like dead fish. There isn't anything harmful with it, but the NPK values are so low that it is almost like why bother. If you are going organic I am pretty sure there are better fertilizers out there, and there are definitely better ones if you are ok with commercial fertilizers.
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fanaticactus
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by fanaticactus »

Thanks, Saxicola, for confirming my suspicions. I know it smells terrible but I wasn't sure about its suitability or effectiveness for cacti. Looks like I'll be sticking to half-strength Miracle-Gro Bloom Booster (10-52-10) and/or Schultz Cactus Plus (2-7-7). Does anyone know the current thinking on using plain tomato plant fertilizer, since it has a high phosphate content to stimulate fruit production?
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DaveW
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by DaveW »

We used tomato fertiliser in the UK for cacti and succulents for decades since it was lower in nitrogen, therefore did not produce the soft lush growth that general garden fertilisers did. Maybe that's not such a problem in hotter climates where there is more sun to harden the growth before the winter. In fact apart from special cactus fertilisers like "Buxbaum's Health Salts" in those days it was the only conventional fertiliser recommended for our plants. However some maintain cacti do want a bit of nitrogen in the growing season.

Tomorite is the usual brand over here having the ratio NPK: 4-3-8, plus magnesium. However looking up their advert it does look like it has added seaweed extract these days, but whether the original did in the 1960's I don't know since the trade name has changed hands a few times over the years, being originally made by Fison's I believe, but now Levington's:-

http://www.lovethegarden.com/tomorite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you want a fertiliser that stank it was Guano one of the early fertilisers that used to be imported, consisting of the droppings of fish eating seabirds from the S. American Coast, usually complete with a few feathers in the bag!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One sniff certainly used to clear your sinuses! :lol:
Ron43
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by Ron43 »

I've used fish fertilizer for over 50 years on all plants, both indoor and outdoor. It does have other micro nutrients and it also will help activate other organisms in the soil and not kill them like chemical fertilizers do.
fanaticactus
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by fanaticactus »

You've made me rethink my approach now, Ron. I am not a chemist and I know next to nothing about fertilizers and which elements stimulate what in the soil. I just know that for best blooming on cacti I want one with a higher phosphorus content, since a higher nitrogen content tends to direct the growth to the body of a cactus (tissue) at the expense of flowers. Further, the third number (potassium) I believe encourages root growth and disease resistance. Now that we have one "for" and one "against", I'd like to see what others might have to say.
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greenknight
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by greenknight »

Fish emulsion works well, especially when combined with seaweed - the seaweed provides even more micro-nutrients, plus growth-stimulating enzymes and hormones.

The smell fades quickly after it soaks in to the soil. The low N-P-K levels are not a problem, stronger fertilizers just need to be diluted a lot - cacti should be fertilized very lightly. The biggest drawback is inconvenience - once you mix it with water, you have to use it up right away or it decomposes and releases ammonia (that really stinks!).
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DaveW
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by DaveW »

Yes don't be conned by fertiliser numbers, 10-10-10 is exactly the same NPK ratio as 5-5-5, it's simply more concentrated so you need less and to dilute it more, just as with concentrated fabric softeners or washing up liquids, though they may cost more being concentrated therefore be no cheaper in the end. Most of our plants require fertilisers to be diluted to half the strength they recommend for normal plants.

http://www.sunset.com/garden/garden-bas ... 000015144/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Saxicola
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by Saxicola »

greenknight wrote:The low N-P-K levels are not a problem, stronger fertilizers just need to be diluted a lot - cacti should be fertilized very lightly.
I disagree. They can survive and even grow on low numbers, but more and more people are finding that if you actually give a healthy amount of fertilizer to these plants they will respond with more growth. From what Dave W says it sounds like the UK has such an adverse climate for growing cacti that you can't let them grow in a lush way, but in better climates the more growth the better.

As for the chemical fertilizers killing off soil microbes. In high enough concentrations they do, but even when that happens they bounce back very quickly.

Fish emulsion or other organic fertilizers certainly won't harm anything, I just think you are overpaying for an inferior product.
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Ron43
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by Ron43 »

greenknight wrote:Fish emulsion works well, especially when combined with seaweed - the seaweed provides even more micro-nutrients, plus growth-stimulating enzymes and hormones.
Correct.
fanaticactus
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by fanaticactus »

Saxicola wrote:
greenknight wrote:The low N-P-K levels are not a problem, stronger fertilizers just need to be diluted a lot - cacti should be fertilized very lightly.
I disagree. They can survive and even grow on low numbers, but more and more people are finding that if you actually give a healthy amount of fertilizer to these plants they will respond with more growth. From what Dave W says it sounds like the UK has such an adverse climate for growing cacti that you can't let them grow in a lush way, but in better climates the more growth the better.
I am keeping an open mind to both sides of the question. Let me give you some more info on my local climate and the substrate I have begun to use almost exclusively on desert cacti. Jungle cacti need different care, as you all know, and I'm pretty well set with that. Our climate here is unquestionably more like the UK (although probably not as rainy throughout the year) than like the USA Southwest & California. On the average, what we expect is a late Spring; today for example is cloudy, showery and cool (in the mid 40s--27/28C). It's been like that for about four days, due to a very slow moving low pressure. In the Summer weather patterns tend to speed up, but not always. The recent Summers we've experienced are generally very comfortable with a range of roughly low 70s to mid 80s (22-29C) and partly sunny to full sun. We can usually expect two brief heat waves in the 90s (33-37C), often with a good deal of humidity. Since I now have a greenhouse, I can control the moisture the collection gets. I am ready to install a 12" exhaust fan to expel the stifling heat from the GH, and I've just strung up shade cloth to cut down on the burning effects of the sun inside. Not so lucky last year! The soil I'm trying almost exclusively this year is a combination of Napa 8822-type diatomaceous earth, gritty sand with the "dusty" compactible stuff sifted out, larger gravel, just a touch (maybe only one-sixth part) of cactus-specific soil sifted to remove the large pieces of wood, and a bit of bone meal. I hope this will help direct me toward the most desirable type of fertilizer. If other conditions are important, let me know. Thanks very much, everyone, for your continued help.
Catch a falling star--but don't try it with a cactus!
bluetexasbonnie
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by bluetexasbonnie »

The 'chemical' fertilizers (hate that term, because all ferilizers are ultimately chemicals), are salts -- typically potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate. The "N" comes from the nitrates, the P from the phosphate, and the K from the potassium. These are all fairly soluble ionic salts. Because they are so soluble, most leaches out of the soil before your plants have a chance to convert them into a form they can use. The leached salts end up in rivers and streams and are detrimental to the balance and health of the waterways.

The ionic nature of them is very hard on the microrhizae fungi which form a symbiotic relationship with the plant roots that helps them 'collect' water and nutrients.

All of that said, when you are growing any plant in small pots, their world is so artificial that it doesn't really matter. The organic matter and the microbial activity in typical cacti potting mixes is very low.

However, those plants that are grown out in the real world will benefit more from an organic based fertilizer -- and so will the waterways.
My cactus must be gods. They demand blood sacrifice.
fanaticactus
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by fanaticactus »

bluetexasbonnie wrote:
All of that said, when you are growing any plant in small pots, their world is so artificial that it doesn't really matter. The organic matter and the microbial activity in typical cacti potting mixes is very low.

However, those plants that are grown out in the real world will benefit more from an organic based fertilizer -- and so will the waterways.
That is an excellent point, bluetexasbonnie, that I wasn't aware of but glad to know because of our proximity to Lake Champlain, which has become increasingly polluted recently due to the gardens and, moreso, the farm runoff of chemical fertilizers. The State (as far as I know) is still in heavy discussion about what measures to take. Because in Vermont, widely known as a "green" and "back-to-nature" paradise, we are mindful of trying to balance the needs and goals of both farmers and environmentalists.
Catch a falling star--but don't try it with a cactus!
DaveW
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by DaveW »

I would never want to grow cacti in a lush way in any climate since then they are completely out of character. Nobody gives them large quantities of fertilizer in habitat even when they grow in rock clefts or pockets having little more soil than our pots contain. A lot of fertiliser may make vegetables better to eat than their wild ancestors, but who wants cacti to look like over succulent garden vegetables?

"One caution! If your plants are growing too lushly and/or are losing their characteristic shape, this may be the result of over-fertilizing. As a rule, it is safer to under-fertilize than over-fertilize."

Henry Shaw Cactus & Succulent Society:-

"Fertilizers and Fertilizing

Generally, succulents and cacti do not demand a great deal of fertilizer to grow. Amounts recommended for typical house plants should be cut back to one-quarter to one-half the concentrations typically recommended on labels.

Fertilizer can be used several times a year during the active growth phase, which begins in March and ends in October. Apply fertilizers only when soil is moist to avoid burning plant roots. In winter, no fertilizer is necessary, as this represents a dormant period for most plants."


From the following link:-

"Fertilizer

Succulent plants, like most plants, appreciate being fed. The difference is, succulents are very efficient, so need less fertilizer less often than other plants. I do not recommend using any special fertilizer for succulents. As you gain expertise with the plants, experimenting with different fertilizers may well enhance the quality of the plants and or flowers. In the mean time, using any balanced fertilizer such as 10-10-10, 20-20-20, or pretty much any all-purpose fertilizer will suffice to maintain a healthy growing plant.

Too much fertilizer will encourage too much growth which makes the plant weedy looking. Too little will leave the plant in suspended animation, appearing to just sit there and not do anything. I suggest cutting the recommended dosage rate in half and fertilizing about once a month at the most. Fertilizing during the winter months is generally not necessary as most succulents are dormant during that time."


http://sgplants.com/articles/entry/succ ... nt_of_view" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
fanaticactus
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Re: fish emulsion fertilitzer?

Post by fanaticactus »

So, from what's been said so far, this question struck me: Because the "natural" (i.e., fish/seaweed emulsions) ferts are inherently weaker in their nutrient content, should they still be diluted to half their manufacturer's recommendation?
Catch a falling star--but don't try it with a cactus!
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