Problem with N. turecekianus, roots gone?

[graffiti]

So my got repotted last year. It was in a mix of basically sand and loam. It did okay, but not great. No flowers, but I know now that's more from temp than soil.

Sunday I was fertilizing the collection and noticed that the N. turecekianus looked awful shriveled. I'd been watering it pretty light all this spring because it's kind of overpotted.

Here's a photo from late last summer after the repot. It's potted in approx 40% 8822, 30% gravel and maybe 15% sand (i know bad idea) and 15% potting soil.



Here it is recently, in bloom, but you can start to see the shrinking. It's gotten to the point where the offset is standing 1/4" away from the main stem now.



I'll take a shot tonight to show how much it's shrunk. It's very noticable. It's flowering okay, but I still feel that the roots are probably gone.

Should I unpot it? I have no idea what to pot it into (other than a smaller pot) that's available around me. I'm going to check around to see if I can find some decomposed granite and put it into that after sifting and washing. I thought I was doing the right thing with the soil I was using but I guess not.

My other thought is that this is a result of having it in full sun from 10am-ish until about 5pm. I've sunburned it before, but never had it shrink like that.

Any advice?

[graffiti]

Okay, some before and after.

Here's the plant before I took it outside. This was April 28th. It had had maybe a cup of water on a hot day in March but nothing before that since October. Temps had been cold, down below freezing several times where the plant was kept.



This is from today. It was watered and lightly fertilized Saturday. You can also see the sunburn, which seems to be getting better slowly.



Here's a closeup of the pup to give you an idea on how much the parent has shrunk. Am I overthinking this?

[iann]

It does look thirsty. Try a little more shade until it gets used to the brighter light. The easiest way to tell if it has roots is to dig it up. Or just to see if the roots fill the pot, because if they don't it really needs to go back in a smaller pot.

This seems like a pretty good example of why you shouldn't overpot. You might have been underwatering because now you're scared of overwatering. You have to water it properly at some point. A porous clay pot will dry out very quickly in warm summer weather even if the roots of the cactus can't suck it dry first.

[graffiti]

Thanks Ian. After saturating it last Saturday afternoon, it has not appeared to take up any water, so I'm guessing the roots are gone.

Unfortunately I'm on vacation starting Saturday, so I'm going to give it a week to decide what it wants to do. If it's not obviously taking up water by the 9th, I'm going to have to take it out and put it in a smaller pot.

Gotta find something better for soil, too. All the decomposed granite I've found around me tends to be 90% or more dust. 8822 seems to hold too much water, especially if I mix it with any kind of organic material. Apparently pumice is something I have to get shipped from the west coast, which is pretty expensive. All that plus I need to find a decent sifter to take all the fines out, I think.

[Steve Johnson]

Gotta find something better for soil, too. All the decomposed granite I've found around me tends to be 90% or more dust. 8822 seems to hold too much water, especially if I mix it with any kind of organic material. Apparently pumice is something I have to get shipped from the west coast, which is pretty expensive. All that plus I need to find a decent sifter to take all the fines out, I think.

I may be able to help, so here are a few recommendations:

1. Among the online sources you're looking into, eBay is better than Amazon, because with eBay you can contact the sellers before you make purchases. Shipping is more cost-effective with larger quantities, so contact your prospective pumice sources on eBay and find out if they can sell pumice to you in the quantity you'll need.

2. For your purpose, crushed granite poultry grit will be much more suitable than the DG you've been getting. In terms of quantity, cost, and shipping -- once again, think "eBay". However, grit can be found at any livestock supply store, so I have a feeling you'll find local sources which bypass the need for going online.

3. You can sift out the fines with fiberglass window screen. Been there, done that with DG, so you'll appreciate having an easier job of it if you go with crushed granite instead. With that said -- and I can't emphasize this enough -- you'll need to thoroughly rinse your pumice and granite after you do the sifting.

I'm about to post new info in a thread fanaticactus started on May 8 (see http://www.cactiguide.com/forum/viewtop ... 25&t=37247" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). This has to do with whether or not you can go soil-less, so it should tie in well with our discussion here. If you're interested in pursuing all this, let me know, and I'll give you a heads-up as soon as I pop the new post out.

[graffiti]

Thanks, Steve. I've been following that thread, mostly because I'm not happy with any of my soil in any of my plants. Even my non-succulents (like Pelargoniums, Streptocarpus, Justicia etc) have soil issues, mostly compaction. I can't seem to find a way to have both semi-organic soil and have good drainage at the same time. The two seem mutually exclusive.

I really need to not kill this cactus, it's my oldest by several years, and I'd be pretty upset if I killed it by using the wrong soil.

[graffiti]

And we can now be sure I killed the roots. I guess this is a hard lesson in why not to overpot plants.

Got home from vacation day before yesterday and not only was it more shriveled than when I left, it was also loose in the pot. Unpotted, and here's what I found. When I repotted last year, it had 12" of roots on it.



Looking at my soil, I'm 100% at fault. Way too many fines, way too much organic. So now I've got some pumice coming and I'm going to find a bag of crushed granite to put it into. Hopefully it has enough water saved up to put out roots.

[Steve Johnson]

Looking at my soil, I'm 100% at fault. Way too many fines, way too much organic. So now I've got some pumice coming and I'm going to find a bag of crushed granite to put it into. Hopefully it has enough water saved up to put out roots.

You're not the first one to go through this type of "hard lesson" experience, but since you do have some roots left to work with, recovery is certainly possible. I just went through something similar with a Mammillaria guelzowiana (see http://www.cactiguide.com/forum/viewtop ... 15#p320815" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -- you may find the details useful), so hopefully the following will help:

1. You're on the right track with pumice and crushed granite. Be sure to thoroughly rinse the fines out with running water before you mix it. I looked at the weather data for your general area, and it appears that your climate in spring and summer is humid enough for you to go soil-less. However, if you feel otherwise, then add just a small amount of soil and make your mix as lean as possible.

2. Take the time to clean the old soil out of the roots -- and I mean squeaky-clean. After you do that, soak them in 1% Hydrogen peroxide for 15 minutes, rinse gently but thoroughly in running water, then let the roots dry out before repotting. Although I don't have any hard evidence to back it up, I do believe that the peroxide treatment helps to promote faster healing of the existing roots and growth of new roots.

3. Nonporous pots are the only way to go. If you're using plastic or glazed/high fired ceramic pots, excellent. If all you have is terracotta, waterproof it first. UV-resistant acrylic paint is a great pot sealer -- your choice of colors, or clear acrylic if you prefer the look of plain terracotta.

If you follow the watering strategy I described in the above link, you'll need to figure out how long it'll take for the plant to go from light to deep watering. In the case of my guelzowiana, it took about 2 months. Unfortunately I have no experience with N. turecekianus, so I don't know what the normal growth rate of its roots should be when the plant is recovering. In the absence of better info, I'd say that 2 months is a safe bet, although you'll be looking at 1 or 2 deep waterings before your growing season ends.

[graffiti]

Thanks again, Steve. This is generally what my roots look like when transplanting (this happens to be an Altman Trichocereus grandiflorus that I saved from Lowe's).

I think the root death actually happened back in March when I watered the first time. We had a run of 75°f-80°f days for a week. Then it got cold and rainy for the next month or so. I'm realizing now that this plant can survive a looooong time without any water, and I should have left it dry until I was sure it would stay above 70°f.

I'm thinking I've got a lot of repotting to do. Pretty much everything is in a soil similar to what I had the Noto in. The funny thing about this cactus is it did beautifully from 2009 until last year, going from slightly larger than a golf ball to what you see now. It was thrown in (literally) mostly silt and sand from my garden (I live on what used to be an eddy in an outflow from the glaciers as they melted 14000ish years ago) Never flowered, but that was because I never got it cold enough. Now, as I try to do it right, and I nearly kill the poor thing.

My biggest concern is that it's going to be close to a week before I get it repotted because pumice doesn't exist on the east coast to buy, and I have to have it shipped in.

[greenknight]

I gave my sister-in-law one, labelled Notocactus submammulosus ssp pampeanus - closely related species to yours. Thought it might be able to survive under her care, unlike most plants. She re-potted it into a 6" pot from its 2.5" one, figuring it would eventually grow into it. It made almost no growth, but it didn't rot - she didn't water it much. They split up a few years later, and she left it behind. My brother moved it into a 4" pot at my suggestion, it took off growing great.

His son shot it with a BB gun, the damaged side of it collapsed - no problem, it started producing offsets, became a clump. Bloomed like crazy.

Tough plants, a week out of the pot is nothing. Don't worry about it.

[graffiti]

Thanks for making me feel better, GK.