The mineralists

[jp29]

.......... relating to growing media for C&S cultivation, that is.

Let me see, on this Forum there are Barry Rice, Steve Johnson, K.W. and myself. Any others?

Xerophilia English Special Issue No. 1 – “The Stone Eaters”

Clickable link: http://xerophilia.ro/wp-content/uploads ... Eaters.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I believe dave123791 posted the link previously.

Here is the essence of an e-mail I sent to the Editor:

I have just finished reading the article with great enjoyment and satisfaction. It is superbly written and so very well researched. The article was of particular interest to me for it embodied so many of my own long-held beliefs and postulations relating to the use of mineral based growing media for cactus cultivation. I have often felt like a lost soul in the wilderness (in the cacti growing community that is) because of my advocacy and have sometimes suffered the "slings and arrows" of scorn and dismissal from fellow enthusiasts. I might add that my epiphany resulted from reading Dr. Franz Buxbaum's book CACTUS CULTURE BASED ON BIOLOGY in the early 1960s - to my mind he is a mostly forgotten pioneer in enlightened cactus cultivation.

[Steve Johnson]

Nice to know we're in good company, James!

By the way, I think we must've stolen some of your heat -- my plant bench hit 104 today, with more triple-digits planned tomorrow and Saturday. The cacti over here are loving it right now!

[BarryRice]

An interesting read!

I'm not as careful of a grower, I'm afraid. I've settled upon one mix and grow the cacti that do well in it.

So far I haven't met much that doesn't like it; I'm probably blessed by good climate.

[adetheproducer]

I read that a while back and repotted all my cacti, I have had good results, good growth plenty of flowers. After using its lessons my sickly matucana madisoniorum has needed two repots due to root ball splitting pots. last winter I froze it a nd it was in its death throws but now it fine. I have also applied a lot of it to my seedling soil mixes with much better result this autum. I have sown about 30 lophophora williamsii, about 150 epithilantha micromeris, a few ariocarpus and some others with great germination results.
Very good read indeed.

[DaveW]

Whilst it is true some cacti in habitat grow in soils with very little humus content it is not universally true. After watching habitat pictures at the Cactus Explores Weekend of some Mammillarias etc covered with leaf litter from nearby bushes or in association with mosses, grasses and lichens it is obvious some grow in quite humus rich soils.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/211104/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://mammillaria.forumotion.net/t554- ... olisioides" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/212181/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's often surprising to many when they see what they often have thought of as choice but difficult desert cacti growing in association with more leafy foliage and mosses in what must be quite wet habitats at certain times of the year. The cacti cover a vast area so it is not unreasonable to expect the type of habitats and soils they inhabit to vary greatly.

However potting soils are not the same as habitat soils since deep soils in open ground behave different to smaller quantities in pots. Cacti will grow reasonably well in many different soil formulation and a potting soil that may suit a person in a very hot climate may not suit somebody in cooler ones.

It is a case that when we start we all experiment with different soils until we find the one that most of our plants grow well in, but even after this we still try something new looking for the "Philosophers Stone" of cactus soils that will turn our plants into "golden" examples of their species. In short our potting soils usually bear little resemblance to what they grow in habit. For instance even in rock fissures the washed in humus can have built up there to form some sort of soil over not just a few years but hundreds of years, so they are not all just living on rock minerals alone.

And in any case if your mineral soils furnished all the nutrients your plants required you would not need to fertilise and grow them what is virtually hydroponically. Buxbaum produced his "Plant Health Salts" for growing plants by his methods so was not relying on the nutrients from his substrates alone. Have you ever tried growing them in your purely mineral soils watered with just rain water and no fertilisation whatsoever, just as they would have to grow in habitat if the soil was purely mineral?

We forget soils have built up over thousands of years as the breakdown of rocks (minerals) and plant remains (humus) even if for hundreds of years there may have been little humus providing vegetation in that area as it has become dryer. Climates change over time altering the soils gradually, but contributions from a more wetter past will still contribute to desert soils make up. Also the reverse is true, the climate of Northern Chile is becoming dryer ad even the cacti present 20 years or so ago are now dying out, or have already done so. Therefore you cannot generalise on the humus content of the soil from the present plant cover.

As always stick with what works for you even if it does not work for others and soil in pots should behave like habitat soils not mirror them since habitat soils may not work in a small container. I read years ago in the American Journal where soil taken from around the base of a Carnegia in habitat was placed in a pot, watered and brought back into a laboratory and it stayed wet for over a month, whereas in open ground the water quickly sank down to lower levels away from the plant and the top surface dried quickly. Pots and open ground do not behave the same regarding soil composition, neither does a deep pot compared to a shallow pan.

[adetheproducer]

Quite right Dave, there are many variables that need to be taken into account. As you quite rightly point out, in nature humus will pretty much always be present as life has lived here a long time and died and rotted to dirt probably on every inch of the planets surface. There are a lot of cacti that do require humus and the mixes I now make are very much customised to the cacti. I have lophophora in pure sandstone/grit/limestone/dolomite mixes that just get rain water, no fertilizes and they love it, but this mix is totally inapropriate for the gymocalycium's inparticular the damsii group I grow. These are in pure dirt just a mixture of clay, loam, silt and mulch no grit or stone very heavey soil and kept quite moist throughout the summer again with great results.
I think to best thing about the stone eaters issue of xerophylia is the change in thinking it has given me, to create the soils appropriate to the plant and not start off with a generalised mixture for all which is them tweeked. I think the real results of my experiments will be in a few years time where they have settled in and grow more.
My initial soil mixes where poor compared to my current mixes. My first foray into cacti cultivation when I was a young teenager back in the 90's resulted in rot and death following the honestly given advice by variouse sources and suppliers confirming peat based soils and sand and perlite could acheive the best results. This may work for many but not me, I killed all my first cacti which put me off getting more for years. I have done far more research with my new collection and it has deffinatelly paid off. Since adopting the mineral mix theories I have much stronger plants which I can water freely without concern. I still have not perfected things by far and lost a few on the way, I killed a euphorbia obesa(not a cacti obviously), Espostoopsis dybowskii and a rebutia muscular since starting my new collection. I deffinatelly now find the tap-rooted species easiest and subsequently have a lot of mexican and good number of chilean varieties with a few odds and sods from else where. Only one mammilaria in my collection so really my point of view dissregards their cultivation and without causing offence these seem pretty boring to me anyway (Im guessing the more experience and older generations of growers will have very differing views on mamm's). I grow mainly lophophora, ariocarpus, turbinicarpus, got some epithilantha, stenocactus, echinocereus, astrophytums, geohintonia, just go an aztekium hintonii, obregonia, thelocactus and pelecyphora also Agave stricta nana "Blue form". These are all in variouse limestone/dolomite/granite/alabaster/sandstone/clay/slate/perished brick/loam mixes. Then eriocyce, copiapoa, gymnocalycium, uebelmania, matucana, hylocereus(forma grafting stock), opuntia ficus-indica and echinopsis all in sandstone/granite/loam/sharp sand/mulch/earthworm casts/scoria/clay mixes each individually created as plant specific mixes with widely varying properties.
As a result of reading that article I now always view habitat pictures, read local geological surveys/whether reports/mining reports and what ever sources of information about the locations the plants grow in I can find then build a rough idea of the minerals present and how best I can match them. I think one thing Im lucky with is there is a wide range of substraights available in the UK and information is much more available withthe modern internet. I have started experimenting with man made baked clays (currently cat litter) with my aloe's, a rebutia heliosa, ferocatus latispinus, stenocereus pruinosus and mammilaria polythele as well as ouside plants such as lavenda and sycamore seedlings. Time will tell but nothing has died yet.
With seedling I have now started using the same ingredients as the adults get just crushed up smaller and as a result have had far better germination rates, going to have a lot of epithilantha micromeris to get rid of in the next year.

[jp29]

DaveW:

Thought about that; investigated that: experimented with that; done that: .................... ad nauseum.

Whilst it is true some cacti in habitat grow in soils with very little humus content it is not universally true. After watching habitat pictures at the Cactus Explores Weekend of some Mammillarias etc covered with leaf litter from nearby bushes or in association with mosses, grasses and lichens it is obvious some grow in quite humus rich soils ........... However potting soils are not the same as habitat soils since deep soils in open ground behave different to smaller quantities in pots. Cacti will grow reasonably well in many different soil formulation and a potting soil that may suit a person in a very hot climate may not suit somebody in cooler ones ...........

Well, Dave, you are just saying what I have said for years.

.......... we still try something new looking for the "Philosophers Stone" of cactus soils that will turn our plants into "golden" examples of their species ...........

I don't

[jp29]

First, let me apologize for the brevity of this response - due to physical limitations I can no longer sit and type long responses to posts on this Forum (perhaps mercifully so)

.......... I think to best thing about the stone eaters issue of xerophylia is the change in thinking it has given me, to create the soils appropriate to the plant and not start off with a generalised mixture for all which is them tweeked ...........

Yes, that is indeed a great virtue in my opinion.

I do like your present approach to cactus cultivation - I think you will have great success following it. I have modified my own cultural methodology considerably over the years and I wish I could experiment more now. But, I am afraid, that is not to be -- I am too old, sick ..... but mostly just too lazy ..... to re-pot most of my old cacti growing in my ubiquitous 80% pumice/decomposed granite and 20% weathered and aged pine bark mix .......... although I know many would benefit from a more appropriate mix. But I do not try to emulate habitat appearance in my plants these days -- I just want them to be healthy and robust with good form and spination - producing an abundance of flowers and fruit in their time.

Again, I think you will do well with your approach and methodology.

[adetheproducer]

First, let me apologize for the brevity of this response - due to physical limitations I can no longer sit and type long responses to posts on this Forum (perhaps mercifully so)

.......... I think to best thing about the stone eaters issue of xerophylia is the change in thinking it has given me, to create the soils appropriate to the plant and not start off with a generalised mixture for all which is them tweeked ...........

Yes, that is indeed a great virtue in my opinion.

I do like your present approach to cactus cultivation - I think you will have great success following it. I have modified my own cultural methodology considerably over the years and I wish I could experiment more now. But, I am afraid, that is not to be -- I am too old, sick ..... but mostly just too lazy ..... to re-pot most of my old cacti growing in my ubiquitous 80% pumice/decomposed granite and 20% weathered and aged pine bark mix .......... although I know many would benefit from a more appropriate mix. But I do not try to emulate habitat appearance in my plants these days -- I just want them to be healthy and robust with good form and spination - producing an abundance of flowers and fruit in their time.

Again, I think you will do well with your approach and methodology.

Uou should put the word out to you local cactus community, im fairly certain you would find some kind volunteers to repot your collection give it a revitalisation for you to enjoy. Hell if I live near you I would do it for the pleasure of it. just a shame theirs a ocean between us.

[jp29]

Uou should put the word out to you local cactus community, im fairly certain you would find some kind volunteers to repot your collection give it a revitalisation for you to enjoy ...........

I am in the process of giving most of my mature cacti (including those growing in my front garden patch and in greenhouses at Dan Bach's) to fellow enthusiasts -- I have derived great pleasure from growing and propagating them -- now others can do likewise. Tristan (Minime8484 on this Forum) came down from Phoenix to visit this past weekend and I loaded him down with choice Brazilians. I have done the same with other local enthusiasts -- I would do the same for you if you lived here (maybe some nice Discocactus, Uebelmannia .... and so on).

I now derive equally great satisfaction and pleasure from cultivating my small collection of Brazilians and Euphorbia's hydroponically at my townhome as described via the link in my signature block. Some pertinent pics:


My front garden patch bereft of potted Brazilians
The large potted Opuntia is a gift from a neighbor and has to stay
I have no say about the ugly utility box


This nifty 30% shade cloth mini-greenhouse is very lightweight and on wheels
Easy for me to manipulate - outdoors on warm sunny days -- indoors on cold days and nights


My present small - but very satisfactory - collection (trays for carrying the plants and staging them on a windowsill)
Euphorbia balsamifera, Arrojadoa dinae & multiflora, Discocactus buenekeri & horstii

That's all I want for the rest of my days -- I will propagate them next spring.

.......... Hell if I live near you I would do it for the pleasure of it. just a shame theirs a ocean between us.

Nice offer and I appreciate it very much but as you can see I am very happy with what I have.

[iann]

Why does this even need discussion? Is there anyone who has been growing cacti for more than 18 months that still thinks a bag of peat and a bit of perlite is a remotely sensible thing to grow them in? Rocks and dirt, usually with a little organic material. Most everything else (including the semi-hydroponics crowd) is a compromise made by people who can't get their hands on a suitable combination of rocks and dirt.

[jp29]

Nice to know we're in good company, James!

By the way, I think we must've stolen some of your heat -- my plant bench hit 104 today, with more triple-digits planned tomorrow and Saturday. The cacti over here are loving it right now!

Not quite as hot here, Steve. But the cacti are indeed reveling in the 60°F (approx 16°C) nights.

[One Windowsill]

I just use perlite and gravel, hand-watered with a hydroponic feed. Is that mineralist enough?

[jp29]

I just use perlite and gravel, hand-watered with a hydroponic feed. Is that mineralist enough?

My goodness, I would say so!

[CactusFanDan]

Why does this even need discussion? Is there anyone who has been growing cacti for more than 18 months that still thinks a bag of peat and a bit of perlite is a remotely sensible thing to grow them in? Rocks and dirt, usually with a little organic material. Most everything else (including the semi-hydroponics crowd) is a compromise made by people who can't get their hands on a suitable combination of rocks and dirt.

Yep, I agree. I don't like to overcomplicate things too much, I just make my mix and grow things in it. Might need a little experimentation to come up with a good mix for a local climate, but it's worth it.