Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

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Steve Johnson
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Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Oh, I manage to find something I can fret about, don't I?

Could use a little help here since I'm wondering if I made a mistake on where I placed my Rebutia heliosa. To give you some perspective, here's the plant's spot in Shady Glen:

Image

A close-up of the area in question:

Image

Although you can't tell from these photos on 6/22, the heliosa is mostly shaded mid-morning through early afternoon, then under full sun after that. It wasn't growing yet, but the plant started taking off in July. Here's what it looked like as of 9/21:

Image

I'd like to ask for some feedback coming from more well-experienced eyes, so here are a couple of questions:

1. Is the heliosa growing normally, or could it be complaining about shade at the wrong time of day during summer?

2. If I move the plant over the border into Sun Valley, it'll get full sun from "high noon" on in late spring and summer. No point in moving the heliosa now since it will be done growing for the year fairly soon. If I make the move in time for spring, will I end with with a weird-looking heliosa next summer?

Not that I'm actually worrying all that much, but I'd be grateful for whatever thoughts you'd care to offer.

Thanks!
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Rod Smith
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Re: Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

Post by Rod Smith »

My heliosa gets full sun in my greenhouse more or less all day and appears to thrive on it. However, I am located in the UK, a lot further north than you, so what suits my cacti might not suit yours.
Cactus enthusiast on and off since boyhood. I have a modest collection of cacti & succulents.
DaveW
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Re: Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

Post by DaveW »

You worry too much Steve! :D

"Many Rebutias, including Rebutia heliosa, are high altitude plants—indeed, we could just as well consider them alpine plants as succulents! The various mountains on which they live are divided by very deep, much warmer, valleys, unsuitable for the growth of alpine Rebutias."

http://ralph.cs.cf.ac.uk/papers/Others/Whatsinaname.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Habitat: It grows in mountainous areas at an altitude around 2500 m 3000 m over sea level."

"Cultivation: These plants come from mountainous areas, so like bright light, cool and dry conditions in the winter; this is important for the flowers as well as for their health. Without this cool winter period (0-10° C) they normally won't get many buds."

"Sun Exposure: Suited for sunny-brightl exposure; can tolerate light shade."

"Cultural Practices: Suited for airy exposures. Needs deep pot and good drainage to accommodate its tap root. It is very cold resistant as low as to -10° C or less for short periods of time."

http://www.cactus-art.biz/schede/REBUTI ... eliosa.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

High altitude plants are used to higher Ultra Violet levels than we get at lower altitudes due to less atmosphere above them filtering out the UV, therefore keeping them squatter and less elongated.

"As would be expected, the high altitude plants are also low growing plants similar to those at the far northern and far southern latitudes. Additionally, high-altitude plants are often particularly spiny or woolly to help shield from the high UV due to the thinner atmosphere. Examples of this are Opuntia polyacantha var. erinacea and Austrocylindropuntia floccosa."

http://cactiguide.com/places/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I believe all Rebutias are high altitude plants, as are Sulcorebutias, they are not traditional desert plants? If you move plants from shade to full sun do it gradually to avoid sunburn by gradually decreasing the amount of shading over the plant.
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Re: Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

Post by iann »

Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?
I think it should go in Aylostera ;)
--ian
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

Post by Steve Johnson »

DaveW wrote:You worry too much Steve! :D
Yeah, I know I do. In case you don't recall, after I got the heliosa in November, I had to do some surgery when 2 of its pups mysteriously died in February. Maybe I should be satisfied to see that the plant obviously recovered well enough for growing. But then the self-critic in me wonders if it's growing well. Looking at other photographic examples, I believe the new growth should be more dome-like with the apex pointing straight up. However, it's possible that I haven't seen enough examples from other people which indicate there's nothing wrong with mine. (Of course, we lower-altitude people will have to put up with the elongation!) I won't have any problem with moving the heliosa for more sun time in the next growing season, but do I really need to? I'm still looking for an answer to that question, although perhaps I should just try it for myself and see what happens.
iann wrote:I think it should go in Aylostera ;)
Don't know what you mean, but it's only because there are so many cactus species I know nothing about. Could you expand on that thought a little? :-k
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keith
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Re: Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

Post by keith »

Hi Steve,

Your Rebutia looks good to me. This species can take more sunlight than other rebutias. I don't think you will hurt it by moving it.

I have grown them well under 40% shade cloth with all day sunlight.
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Re: Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

Post by DaveW »

What Ian means I think is DNA studies have found that Rebutia and Aylostera, which has in the past often been lumped into Rebutia based on morphology, are derived from two different ev0lutionary lines and their similarities are merely convergence due to inhabiting similar habitats. Genera should ideally be monophyletic, but DNA studies are often showing that genera based on morphology (the form of the plant or it's flowers), whilst containing plants that look similar are in fact polyphyletic, containing species arising from different ev0lutionary lines and therefore should not be associated with each other:-

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/glossary/gloss1/phyly.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Heliosa is therefore an Aylostera not a Rebutia as Ian says.

I was listening to a talk by Boris Schlumpberger at the weekend on Echinopsis sensu Hunt which parallels the Rebutia question. Rather than write everything again, see my comments towards the end of these links:-

http://www.bcss.org.uk/foruma/viewtopic ... 1&t=162354" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.bcss.org.uk/foruma/viewtopic ... 5&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

Post by Steve Johnson »

Keith, thanks for your feedback -- it was quite helpful! I've been going back and forth about it, but I'm now inclined to make the move. As I said, I won't do it yet. Since I got my new plant bench last summer, I've been observing how the light on the bottom shelf changes over the course of the year. If I move the heliosa to the spot I have in mind, it'll be toward the beginning of March. At that point, the plant will slowly acclimate to more sun by the time it's ready for action in the spring/summer season. Should be interesting to see if the look of new growth fits in well with how the heliosa has been growing so far.

Dave -- I looked at your comments and the attending info in your links. Now I know what you and Ian are talking about. Very interesting, and I do appreciate the opportunity for taking in these aspects of cactus education.
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DaveW
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Re: Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

Post by DaveW »

Should have included this link for you Steve. You can skip the heavy stuff (I usually do and leave that to people like Phil and Ian) then scroll down to the dendogram (the cactus family tree) where you will see they highlight the Rebutia line in red and the Aylostera one in green and yellow. To include Aylostera in the same genus Rebutia you would have to go back to where the two lines branch from each other and that would mean lumping everything in the middle from that point into the same genus!

http://www.pakbs.org/pjbot/PDFs/43(6" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)/21.pdf

If the above link does not work "Google":-

"FURTHER INSIGHTS AND NEW COMBINATIONS IN AYLOSTERA (CACTACEAE) BASED ON MOLECULAR AND MORPHOLOGICAL DATA."

http://www.amjbot.org/content/94/8/1321.full" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See also:-

http://www.english.sulcopassion.be/clas ... iongb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course just like conventional classification based on morphology others may disagree with their conclusions. DNA Sequencing however will mean many of the large lumped genera may have to be split up again, the plants being mainly associated by convergence of features (they just look similar) not by family relationships. Unfortunately similar body shapes and flowers can arise in different plant lines or genera due to using similar pollinators or inhabiting similar habitats and so are not always an indication of family relationships. Also the same line and even genus can produce different body types or flowers for the same reasons. Nobody ever said classification was easy and plants do not always fit into nice little man made boxes, so arguments about their relationships will continue for years to come.
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JustSayNotoCactus
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Re: Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

Post by JustSayNotoCactus »

I vote that you move it immediately, before it can stretch any further. All those spines are its natural shade cloth so I doubt it will burn. I have been noticing this year, that my cacti in places with not enough light, have been more prone to fungal and insect attack. The nicest looking cacti I have right now are the ones that either get all day sun (under 50% shade cloth) at 100 to 120 degrees or the ones that get dazzling full sun for at least 6 hours a day. The only things I grow in full shade now are seedlings, shade loving conophytums, capsaintmariensis type euphorbias, Dioscoria elephantipes, Siningias, epiphytic cacti, and simonae type Ceropegias. Even then, all of my shady spots still get either cool morning sun or a bit of late afternoon sun.

R. heliosa is just about the opposite of those shade plants and should be placed in the coolest, brightest place you can find, if that makes any sense.
Jade plants are for sissies.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

Post by Steve Johnson »

JustSayNotoCactus wrote:R. heliosa is just about the opposite of those shade plants and should be placed in the coolest, brightest place you can find, if that makes any sense.
What you say makes perfect sense to me, and I think you just sealed the deal on the placement change I have in mind. The entire collection is under 40% shade cloth, so I was never worried about the heliosa getting sunburn. Where I miscalculated was its tolerance to shade as a matter of compromise getting the cacti in Shady Glen situated based on my best guess. But that was only a guess, and miscalculations come with the territory. Hopefully this change will be for the better. Once again, it should be interesting to see what the plant will look like in another summer.
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Steve Johnson
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Re: Changing R. heliosa placement -- thoughts, anyone?

Post by Steve Johnson »

JustSayNotoCactus wrote:I vote that you move it immediately, before it can stretch any further.
After more thought on the stretching problem, I think there could be another factor working in combination with the sun/shade issue -- watering frequency. I watered the heliosa every 2 weeks in spring, then upped the frequency to once per week in summer. While my Mexican cacti have been loving it, maybe the plant doesn't need watering as often during summertime. I'm always willing to make adjustments to my growing practice whenever observation and common sense dictate. Such being the case, that's what I'll do from here on out -- move the heliosa from Shady Glen to its new spot over the border into Sun Valley, and water it every 2 weeks in spring and summer. Then hopefully these adjustments will keep the plant from forcing new growth beyond what's reasonably natural. I'll be following this with keen interest, so perhaps a nice progress report pops up on the forum next summer.

Heartfelt thanks to my respondents -- when I ask questions on the forum, it's nice to know that our members are so helpful about answers! :)
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