Page 1 of 3

Echinomastus spines

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:52 pm
by bruno
can you tell these species? :D

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

and varieties of course. Old names are accepted :wink:

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:53 pm
by daiv
This looks like a task for Peterb!

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:01 pm
by jeffrey6115
What ever they are I would like #1,3,5 and 9. Like those spines!!

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:09 pm
by iann
Cant' tell what they are because there are too many spines in the way :oops:

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:51 pm
by CoronaCactus
Great photos!

#3 E. laui

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:16 am
by tumamoc
:-k. The only ones I will hazard a guess on are:

#4 erectocentus
#6 intertextus
#9 johnsonii

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:57 am
by peterb
hmmm..I really don't know the Mexican ones so well! But I will try:

durangensis
unguispinus
laui
erectocentrus
durangensis mapimiensis?
intertextus
acunensis?

not sure on the last three. They look like forms of durangensis to me. :-)

I look forward to learning more about the Mexican Echinomastus from you, Bruno.

peterb

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:47 pm
by bruno
So let' s talk about mexican species, that is E. unguispinus and its varieties or forms.

E. unguispinus (Eng) B&R ( pics 5 and 10) was described as having 20-25 radial spines spreading irregularly, withish to yellowish, grey with age and 4-9 tick central spines straw to horn coloured to chalcky grayish blue, with brownish-black upper half. The upper centrals ascending to appressed, lowest central recurved and "fang like".

In E. durangensis (Ruenge) B&R radial spines are thinner, longer and more numerous, up to 30, they can be white (pic 8 SB46) or yellow (pic 9), centrals are darker (more so in the upper part) and longer, the upper ones ascending, the lower porrect.

E. Laui Frank & Zecher 1978 (pic 3) is like unguispinus but smaller and with fewer, shorter spines. It is the southernmost form, found by Lau in Salinas, SLP. It is treated by most as an extreme form of E. unguispinus, even though F&Z report their habitats are about 500km apart.

Last, pic 1 shows a plant labelled E. mapimiensis Backeberg, a lost name. It was described as smaller, with more delicate spination and whiter than E. unguispinus. This is neither matching the plant in pic 1, which comes labelled as mapimiensis with no fn, nor plants from seeds of SB1090, which I suspect will grow like that of pic 1. E. mapimiensis was long searched, G&F distributed under this name plants collected south of Jimenez in the late 60es as G&F783, but later apologized saying: "Apparently E. mapimiensis is just a synonim of E. unguispinus which is fairly common near Mapimi, Durango, and our "mapimiensis" checks out well with E. durangensis".


Others are
2. E. mariposensis
4. E. dasyacanthus
6. E. intertextus
7. E. warnockii

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:57 am
by peterb
Wow, I got maybe 1 or 2 right out of 10. That's what I love about growing and learning about these plants, always something new to learn. Thanks for the info on unguispinus/durangensis Bruno.

Mesa Garden sells "durangensis mapimiensis", which I am growing. I can't believe I missed the mariposensis and warnockii!

peterb

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:19 pm
by bruno
I put the pics of warnockii (kakui form) and durangensis in a row just to show how similar they are, the only distinguishing characters being the presence of a long lower central in durangensis which is wanting in warnockii. Besides that the color of the stem is darker in warnockii and of course the flowers are pretty much different.

I took a few pictures today

warnockii

Image

durangesis

Image

the other form of durangensis with yellowish spines

Image

And talking about unguispinus (or durangensis) mapimiensis

the plant coming from a german nursery, which I suspect being sb1090 (it didn' t flower yet :| ) but is nice :)

Image

These are seedlings of sb1090, I would be curious to see yours :)

Image

These are seedlings of durangensis from self produced seeds

Image

this one looking much warnockii like :wink:

Image

coming to warnockii these are 2 yrs old seedlings from the kakui plant, possibly hybrids as this is the only flowering size warnockii I am growing

Image

little bit older warnockii

Image

warnockii gdl31 (don' t find however this in the fndatabase...)

Image

kakui
Image

again kakui

Image

pallidus sb417

Image

again sb417

Image

These warnockii seedlings look quite similar and I am curious to see if there is any difference in the flowers. E. kakui was introduced by Backeberg as a provisional name for pallidus, withouth type sp. and is treated by most as syn. of Warnockii as Echinocactus erectocentrus var. pallidus Weniger.

I took also some pictures of intertextus, but that' s for another post :D

Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:07 pm
by peterb
Great photos! I'll post some pics soon. I'm learning a lot about this genus from you Bruno, much appreciated. There's so little in the literature on these plants!

peterb

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:49 am
by peterb
Bruno, a few pics:

Echinomastus durangensis 'mapimiensis' SB1090:

Image
Image

Echinomastus unguispinus from Gomez Palacio:

Image
Image
Image

E. warnockii 'kakui' SB742:
Image
Image
Image

peterb

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:38 am
by Tony
I can tell you I like them Bruno, thats about it. :)

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:28 pm
by diamondstate
Wow, those warnockii spines are amazing! :shock:
Jim

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:32 pm
by bruno
thank you Peter, great plants and interesting discussion.

Kakuis are both sb742, your plant bearing thicker, shorter radials and thick upper central. Backeberg' s lexicon says: "RSP 10-14, 1-2.5 cm long acicular, horn coloured, violet grey above.... Csp 1 strongly erect 1.5 cm long , violet grey in the lower part". In my pic there is not a clearly distinguished central, while I can see one upper central in your close up as well as in my kakui seedlings, which look similar to your plant.
I am curious to see the flowers.

Your mapimiensis looks much closer to Backeberg' s description, with whitish radials. After seeing that, I would exclude that my plant from Germany is a mapimiensis, while I still hope that the seedlings are.

This E. unguispinus from gomez palacio is just another instance of the many outstanding forms of this species.

I' ll come back later on this

BTW I have a copy of of Backeberg' s Die Cactaceae Vol V, unfortunately don' t speak German, is anybody willing to translate the chapter on Echinomastus? :D